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Fellowship of the Link

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.evolix.org/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[x]], [[y]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
Threads from last time we would like to pick up:
- [[high leverage opportunities]] we can spot
- [[generative commons]]
  - [[generative linking]] (inferring links)
  - [[general commons agreement]] https://bra.in/8qeNWy
- [[wishlist]] approach to worldbuilding
- [[Jerry Michalski]] let’s discuss: note sharing.
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] let’s discuss conventions? Added something in [[massive wiki]].
    - volunteered https://tftmap.massive.wiki/map/aram_zucker-scharff
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he’s been working on.
- [[Flancian]] would like to discuss [[Interwiki]] links and the [[common hub]] approach for search and entity resolution
- [[SJ]] wants to discuss / address this at hacking days at Wikimania in August (you’re all invited to Singapore ;) https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Wikimania
- Build a timeline of links shared in these calls using Aram’s tool.
#push [[fotl threads]]
- define:
  - [[wiki]] / root URL
  - /now
  - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
    - [[github]] by default?

[[2025-03-26]]

Not today! Stealth editing by [[SJ]] anyhow.
Reminded that wikis need their own go-links and there is hot debate sometimes about who gets shortcuts for user-namespace pages :)
from the Build a Bigger Wiki Dept.
- Calling all indexers: [[SJ]] and [[Public AI Network]] folk working on building the index to a planetary library ~ https://publicai.network/atlas
- Also have new partners for [[Omnipedia]] in the Lam Lab at Stanford who want to feed STORM drafts into the draft-wiki. Experiments in the coming weeks…
love to you all //

[[2025-03-19]]

Attending: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Flancian]]
Working while in vacation
Training our replacements
Environment at the workplace
- Subscription woes due to owner statements
- Return to office five days a week
Personal projects
- #AZS: [[foursquare]] space. There’s takeout data for the service that they shut down. Spent time to fill in checkins
  - this could support/enable a social feature (through ActivityPub or AtProto)
  - on atproto vs activitypub
    - ActivityPub better for social networking itself
      - [[betula]] example for non-microblogging functionality
      - scaling is still a pain with AP
    - Atproto more sensible in some ways though
      - Like the PDS approach
  - #AZS maybe nostr is the right technical answer, but the community has downsides
    - and at this point social networks just decline
  - Opportunity for “commons first solution that can make use of vault/archive data”
  - in “import/making data useful space”:
    - [[promnesia]]
    - [[dogsheep]]
[[atproto]] conference this week

[[2025-03-12]]

Attending: <…>
[[Shawn Murphy]]: https://smurp.com/ presenting!
- http://bootstrap.noosphere.org/#/5
- [[huviz]]: https://huviz.noosphere.org
- [[thinkertoys]] and [[nooviz]]
- supports meta objects/predicts, useful for assertions about the graphs
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_Grand_Duchess_Christina
  - https://web.stanford.edu/~jsabol/certainty/readings/Galileo-LetterDuchessChristina.pdf
  - https://disf.org/galileo-lettera-a-madama-cristina-di-lorena (original Italian)
Q&A and comments
- Very cool! Could nooviz be used as a library/embedded for graph/triples/[[TTL]] rendering?
  - Yes!
- Are you thinking of this as a hosted service or a toolkit that people can download and use?
  - Yes to both!
- Content security restrictions / iframe embedding
  - Patched browser that user can specify embedding desired by user
- We should meet!
  - https://smurp.com/meet
- You should review the European Research Council: https://erc.europa.eu/
#PK
- perhaps related, the explanations in “A Thousand Brains: A New Theory of Intelligence”, a book authored by Jeff Hawkins
- Hawkins says thought uses older brain mechanics based on physical maps of animals’ grid-based motion in (mostly 2D) space
#JM
- we’ll be able to subject our thinking strategies to evolutionary pressure
- #PK William Calvin describes thought as a process that involves cortical columns dancing in Darwinian selection of which thought to think: https://sites.google.com/view/williamcalvin-org/brains-consciousness
- https://thinkertoys.app/redir/JoinChat

[[2025-02-19]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]

[[2025-02-12]]

Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]]
Fires in [[Altadena]]
- [[Wind maps]]
- Factors for these fires:
  - Unusual driness
  - Winds stronger than usual in this season
  - Building materials
    - Could we build houses that can defend against fire?
Jerry: ice storm coming
- Had a very good speaking month so far!
- Q: any feedback lately? How did it go?
  - Started with talking about possible and impossible
Peter Kaminski
- Two startups!
  - [[YouBots.ai]]
  - AI coaching forum
- On the lowered barrier to entry to coding
  - And regenerating codebases from improved prompts instead of (sometimes) maintaining the code
- F: On the need to annotate generated content ideally going forward, traceability of meaningfulness (?)
  - On losing touch with reality if we don’t do this
  - The examples we already have of people not caring about factfulness
- Midterm elections

[[2025-01-29]]

Attending: [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Flancian]]
Check ins
On [[atproto]]:
- [[Mathew]] has been looking into it as it relates to possible plans/goals within the EU commission
  - Each [[lexicon]] is a view or an [[app]] in the [[atmosphere]] ([[at-mosphere]]?)
  - Thinking about how to make [[myhub]] an app in the atmosphere.
  - Some of the content in the [[PDS]] could be published in a hub; some in [[Bluesky]].
  - Thinking of e.g. managing notes in Obsidian, and publishing a subset of them through this pipeline.
  - About the question “Is [[Bluesky]] really decentralized”?
    - A conversation that took place mostly in blog posts, but maybe could benefit from consolidating on a wiki.
  - [[Mathew]] and [[Aram]] worked on a doc.
[[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]: a lot going on at work.
- On TPM work and glue work.
- [[glue work]]: https://www.noidea.dog/glue
About the reaction to the new US status quo
- Surveillance of protesters started with the past administration
- The government is allowed to buy data from (commercial) data brokers, which in practice enables warrantless investigations (!)
Moving to Europe:
- Apply for a grant - european research council https://erc.europa.eu/apply-grant
  - For Non-European Researchers:
Check out [[archive box]]: https://archivebox.io/
- Flancian: will tell [[bouncepaw]] about this, he’s developing [[betula]] and wants to add archiving: https://garden.bouncepaw.com/hypha/betula
Results from social.coop about defederating from threads:
- https://www.loomio.com/d/u1OkUA6M/clarity-on-stance-with-regards-to-threads/30 was the vote
- 77% of people voted to suspend
- 11% voted not to suspend (stay at limit)
- 12% abstained
- 0 blocks
- [[Loomio]] is a governance platform
  - [[Bonfire]] is coming along
  - https://wiki.social.coop/wiki/Governance is a good starting point for how Social.coop does things
  - https://wiki.social.coop/wiki/Make_a_proposal
- [[polis]] ~ [[pol.is]] is also in this space

[[2025-01-15]]

Chris Aldrich can’t make it today. still dispdby fires and poor wifi conx.

Attending: [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Eduardo Ivanec]]
Check ins
- Fires
- Starting the year
Brain being rewritten for the Xth time
Idea: using AI to refactor/rewriting/making old code shinier
- Aram: it’s still far from being autonomous/decouplable. Some experiences with a python codebase it works great, little experiance with Rust as a codebase and it is useless to me.
- Flan: +1 totally.
- On resistance by engineering organizations, and the need for someone with domain expertise to review/validate.
- Mathew: it could work great for transpiling, updating, refining. A company could become an expert in applying genAI in partnership with those who understand the existing product and code.
- A lot of platforms / tools / profiles of labor will mutate with AI use
- On the kind of development processes this unlocks
[[FreeOurFeeds]]:
- https://social.coop/@cwebber has plenty of commentary about this and Bluesky in general
  - [[Spritely]]:
    - https://dustycloud.org/blog/spritely/
    - https://spritely.institute/
- https://myhub.ai/@mathewlowry/?tags=christine+lemmer-webber&types=like&types=do&types=think&timeframe=anytime&quality=all
- https://social.coop/@eloquence/113821768358759243
- Would running extra relays reduce the load on existing ones?
  - We have different understandings
  - On [[shared heaps]]
  - With Bluesky you can remove yourself from the network and take away all your data
On Meta’s policy changes and fallout
- Flan: this sent the Fediverse into a heated reaction, understandably. https://wiki.social.coop/wiki/Federation_with_Threads and https://www.loomio.com/d/u1OkUA6M/clarity-on-stance-with-regards-to-threads/30.
- https://opentermsarchive.org/en/memos/meta-dampens-hate-speech-policy/
- Good five minute video: https://www.facebook.com/zuck/videos/1525382954801931/

[[2024-12-11]]

Attending: [[Matthew Lowry]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Chris Aldrich]]
Displaying and/or Owning Bluesky comments
IndieWebCamp this past weekend
- [[typecasting]]: Typing as a UI for posting to the Web.
  - https://typosphere.blogspot.com/
  - https://indieweb.org/typecast
“There are too many blogs and not enough wikis.” - M.L.

[[2024-11-20]]

[[Peter Kaminski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]]
[[Mechanical keyboards]] and [[typewriters]]
[[Selectric hacking]] by the soviets
- [How Soviets used IBM Selectric keyloggers to spy on US diplomats - Ars Technica](
  https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/10/how-soviets-used-ibm-selectric-keyloggers-to-spy-on-us-diplomats/
- Project Gunman:
  https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/index.htm
[[Peter Kaminski]] startup hacking :)
- Issues with the [[openai sdk]]
- But having fun pair programming :)
[[Chris Aldrich]]
- enjoying the [[topology class]]
[[Bluesky]]
- on reconstructing, maintaining, porting and strenghtening social graphs
- #CA the [[upcoming]] example: https://upcoming.org/, bought back from Yahoo
- #PK the [[del.icio.us]] case
We miss [[RSS]] and [[chat federation]]
#CA idea: [[webmentions]] from the Agora
- also [[refbacks]]
- [[trash drawer]]
- [[Cairo Genizah]]:
  - The Cairo Genizah is a collection of Jewish manuscript fragments discovered in the genizah (storage room) of the Ben Ezra Synagogue in Fustat (Old Cairo), Egypt. These documents, accumulated over a millennium, provide invaluable insights into the social, economic, and religious life of the Jewish community in the medieval Middle East. The genizah was discovered in 1896 and has since been a crucial source for scholars studying Jewish history and culture.
New name for [[massive wiki builder]]?
- Maybe just [[massive builder]]?
- Have you seen https://sutty.nl/en/? They are a coop in this space.

[[2024-11-13]]

[[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Mathew]]
[[DOGE days]]
[[Fellowship]] topics
- [[Mathew]] trying a procedure for integrating tools and platforms
  - [[Bluesky]]: some open questions
    - Who is backing them now?
  - [[Nostr]]: this week
  - Q: a tour of the socials?
    - trying to look at protocols to see how own ideas would fit
    - focus is [[AI for communities]]
  - Thanks for [[massive wiki]]!
    - Right back at you :)
    - How to theme it?
- [[Peter Kaminski]]:
  - [[Community Discussion Platforms]]: https://peterkaminski.wiki/community_discussion_platforms
  - [[massive wiki]] improvements, including redirecting to a git forge to edit page
    - new version upcoming
      - massivewikibuilder as a Python module (likely with a different name)
      - technically much improved theme, Dolce
  - [[ai coaching forum]]
    - [[Mathew]]: reminded of https://humansplus.ai
  - -> joined a startup! \o/
    - [[youbots.ai]]: beta on Dec 1st, live on Jan 1st
      - building [[gpt for businesses]]
      - USP: do 80% of what you need for much less in some areas; e.g. supplementing your marketing agency.
      - Assist people, not replace people.
- [[Jerry]]:
  - Just back from Montreal, picked up a bug somewhere.
  - April killing it with speeches.
    - [[IASB]] convention and three ways of getting there
      - [[Shawn Kanungo]] was there
  - Will be in [[Melbourne]], [[Brisbane]] -> ([[Iian Neill]] lives there IIRC)
- [[Centaurs]] vs [[Reverse Centaurs]]
  - https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7262457185203372033/
- [[Peter Kaminski]] agora

[[2024-11-06]]

an off the record rehash of election 2024

[[2024-10-30]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Chris Aldrich]][[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] (11:30) [[Mathew Lowry]] (12:03)
Was “education” in Eisenhower’s phrase “military-industrial complex” in early drafts of his farewell speech?
- yes, apparently so, but as “military-industrial-academic complex”
  - https://disorientation.nu/2017/northeastern-and-the-military-industrial-academic-complex/
  - https://www.routledge.com/University-in-Chains-Confronting-the-Military-Industrial-Academic-Complex/Giroux/p/book/9781594514234
- also apparently “military-industrial-Congressional complex”?
Pete, on In Search of a Nice Team Wiki
- nice wiki for non-geeks: https://bookstackapp.com/
- a commercial system I like better than Notion: https://www.getoutline.com/
https://omnivore.app/ being acquihired and shutting down
The hundred year web service - https://youtu.be/xUfICrkBco4?si=wptuKo8WNQtASiSU
- https://indieweb.org/longevity
- Vs the 100 year WordPress service
  - WordPress problems - https://context.center/topics/wordpress-wpengine-conflict/
Donald J. Trump’s competencies
- Complexity isn’t a Vice: 10 Word Answers and Doubletalk in Election 2016
News Exhaustion
#AZS on sustainability of open source

[[2024-10-23]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]] [[Jerry Michalski]]; Late: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
Alternate notes at: https://hypothes.is/search?q=tag%3A"Friends of the Link 2024-10-23"
Check ins
- Mathew: going through checkups
- Peter: back, things are going well
[[Capacities]]: https://www.fastcompany.com/91206311/capacities-app-notion-alternative-note-taking
- Shiny!
- But we’re trying not to look too much into every new tool?
- The issue with exporting/importing (moving “ecosystems”)
- What we want from tools in this space (and any space?)
  - [[Data portability]] is key
  - Focus on usability
  - Has full linkability
  - Plus some killer feature?
[[Flancian]]: [[Data portability]]
- Tracking two projects for migrating tweets and other data off Twitter and making it usable elsewhere
- One targets specifically importing them into a Bluesky timeline
- Another targets a [[community archive]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Transfer_Project was a thing
- [[Jerry]] the [[Twitter Refuseniks]] :)
- Where do we want to move to?
  - [[Mathew]]: [[Bluesky]]. Currently working on a [[starter pack]]. Been posting in places but saying ‘go here to interact’.
  - [[Peter]]: where is the lively conversation and how can I be part of that? I’m looking for the best conversations and interactivity. Suspects that people will not actually follow links to engage.
- on the spark of virality
Jerry says: Many People Search for Twitter Alternatives, like Mastodon. but the Pickings Are Slim and Mastodon Is an Imperfect Substitute. https://bra.in/9joXg5
Mathew says: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:828/format:webp/1*_AOSfuUgfVsGcd5YzyBJyg.png
[[Ruben Verborgh]]
Peter Kaminski says: “Ruben Verborgh – Professor of Decentralized Web Technology” https://ruben.verborgh.org/
Mathew says: https://experiments.myhub.ai/ai4communities_post
- Peter: liked your post
- Chris: read it and took analog notes
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] believes [[Model Collapse]] is a [[nothingburger]]
    - Mathew: but https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07566-y
  - [[Jerry]]: Gray’s post, from the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20170413225220/http://www.webnerd.me/2009/05/know-and-master-your-social-media-data.html
  - [[Chris Aldrich]]: We have Renaissance humanism from the 1500s. We need to have a dose of Digital humanism in the 2000s.
  - [[Flancian]]: also read (part of) your article and liked it, have been exploring similar ideas. Interested in the Commons as a tool for advancing on different alignment problems.
  - [[Peter Kaminski]]: [[decolonizing AI]] - https://nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-2410/msg00046.html
[[Peter Kaminski]]: on [[synthetic civilizations]] as the endgame
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]: agree on scarcity of data will be crucial, we’re already hitting the limits of the data we have.
  - [[Midjourney]] images do revert to a baseline of mediocrity/average when you feed them back into the model a few times
[[Peter Kaminski]]: The synthetic data things i was thinking of are Nemotron (Llama-3.1-Nemotron-70B-Instruct, Nemotron-4 340B by NVIDIA)
- “Nvidia just dropped a new AI model that crushes OpenAI’s GPT-4—no big launch, just big results | VentureBeat”
  - https://venturebeat.com/ai/nvidia-just-dropped-a-new-ai-model-that-crushes-openais-gpt-4-no-big-launch-just-big-results/
- “[[Nemotron]]-4 340B | Research”
  - https://research.nvidia.com/publication/2024-06_nemotron-4-340b
- “[[Synthetic data]]: Fine-tuning LLMs with AI-generated data | SuperAnnotate”
  - https://www.superannotate.com/blog/llm-synthetic-data
#AZS Book on [[open source]]: [[Working in Public]] (2020)
[[Gordon Brander]] on [[nostr]]: https://substack.com/home/post/p-143032514
- Does anyone here believe [[nostr]] will “win”, whatever that means?
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] - (following on from Aram) Nostr the protocol is solid, the Nostr community is mostly crypto-focused. You could build a “winning” app on Nostr protocol, but you’d have to do the very substantial work of creating the social fabric and the communities of communities that run on it
https://bra.in/8pWVMY
Meeting notes - https://app.thebrain.com/brain/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/f6ea3567-90a0-47c6-b255-df8a4cd2bba9
Bye all! (meeting ended abruptly at 11:59AM Pacific)
- Aram - Bye all!

[[2024-10-09]]

Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Flancian]]
Check ins
AI output detection
- Genius ‘steganography’/glyph watermarking approach
- c.f. [[trap street]]
context shift
- [[soul]] vs [[breath]] in hebrew, nuances lost when reading translations in a different age
- [[scots wikipedia]]
[[mathew]]: https://experiments.myhub.ai/ai4communities_post
- experimenting with [[notebooklm]]
shared:

[[2024-10-09]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff] [[Flancian]] [[Matthew]]
Flancian: excited about the [[Ekumen]] project
- https://codeberg.org/Ekumen
- context in anagora.org/ekumen
- [[edumerco]], [[bonfire]]
- The FoTL is invited, and flancian will report back progress :)
- On polls vs voting, and how that interacts with democracy
Jerry: [[pol.is]]
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G0v
- https://github.com/compdemocracy/
- [[liquid democracy]]? what happened to it? why isn’t it ‘taking over’?
  - Can you name any country which significantly revamped their governance/state?
    - Iceland almost did, but parliament didn’t approve it
- pol.is had to remove functionality (reply to a thread) to curb abuse
Aram: on [[rent stabilization]] vs [[rent control]]
- [[rent stabilization]] caps the increases in rent to a set percentage (~45% of NYC units)
- [[rent control]] caps the actual rent (1% of NYC units)
Matthew joins! \o/
- What have you been up to?
- Worked on integrating [[ChatGPT]] onto [[MyHub]] – but in the end didn’t find it useful yet
- Now exploring [[model collapse]] and how that interacts with the fact that the web is being flooded by generated content
- [[Jerry]]: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07566-y
- So human generatd content might actually become more valuable in the future
- Would like to learn more about [[bluesky]] and [[nostr]]
- [[Matthew’s post]]: https://experiments.myhub.ai/ai4communities_post
- https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240612-the-people-making-ai-sound-more-human
- https://futurism.com/the-byte/ai-companies-hiring-authors-poets-fix-writing
- https://publicinfrastructure.org/2023/03/29/the-three-legged-stool/
On pros and cons and limitations of [[ActivityPub]]
On economic incentives as they relate to how the AI-enabled (or flooded) web is likely to evolve
- [[You have not yet heard your favorite song]]

[[2024-10-02]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich] [[Flancian]]
[[Chris Aldrich]]:
- Studying topology! Properly
- [[general topology]] and [[introduction to topology]]
- Super cool!
- Flancian: trying to study [[category theory]] informally.
  - [[a rosetta stone]]
  - #CA [[spivak]]: Spivak, David I. (1978– ). [[Category Theory for the Sciences]]. MIT Press, 2014.
- [[the bandwagon]] by [[Claude Shannon]]: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=1056774 :)
[[The Mad Scientists’ Club]]
[[globetrotting]]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bev9VChj5xQ&feature=youtu.be
[[west wing]] and [[shibboleth]]
[[vp debate]]
[[genghis khan]] and the [[myth of eternal growth]]
from here to [[atproto]] and [[federation]] in Mastodon :)
- [[flancian]] on the [[Ekumen]] project ;)
Chris’s notes/links: https://hypothes.is/search?q=tag%3A"Friends of the Link 2024-10-02"

[[2024-09-04]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff] [[Flancian]]
Check ins
- [[Jerry’s Reel]]: https://vimeo.com/1006299404
- Peter’s [[AI coaching forum]] is now open
  - Two paying members
  - [[Discourse]]:
    - The [[AI Coaching Forum]] is Discourse based as planned, it turns out that there is a good official plugin to manage subscriptions
    - An empty Discourse can be intimidating, but it has very good QoL once set up; and it’s super easy to install
- [[Aram]] shares screen, [[context center]]:
  - https://context.center/timeline/covid
  - Based on Eleventy, Molly’s system before she moved to react, and Aram’s personal archive/pinboard
  - It tries to produce archive links for every items
  - Icons are new
  - Questions/feedback
    - Can we integrate this massivewiki, given that both use markdown as a source of truth?
      - It would be nice to see a wiki in timeline view.
    - How to set up one of your own?
    - How to contribute new items or comment/engage?
    - Long covid icon could be clearer; icons could surface the category on hover (use title property?)
    - Love the deep linking + highlighting and archiving
    - Maybe deep link the timeline and/or individual resources?
How are we doing with other projects we wanted to do this year?
- [[neobooks]]
  - Monday [[Jose Leal]] on [[rprotocols]]: https://rprotocols.org/en/home
    - [[Integrative law]]
    - Maybe related to [[generative commons agreement]].
    - Looks very nice and interesting
    - Meta about the [[Henry Ford]] quote
  - What Do You Do When Stars, Heroes and Artists Act Reprehensibly? https://bra.in/7vPEG9

[[2024-08-28]]

Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff] [[Flancian]]
On [[hard disks]] and [[ssds]] longevity
On the potential for [[revolution]] / reform in the workplace
- [[Aram]] similar position previously
  - Tried getting to a position where fixing the system was the role
  - Time bidding
  - Going along
  - Upper management needs to be interested in operating with ethics
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem
  - [[Chris Aldrich]]:
    - [[satisficing]]
  - [[jerry michalski]] [[etymology of secretary]]
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]:
    - [[nate silver]]:
      - [[the river]] vs [[the village]]
      - [[on the edge]]: [[the art of risking everything]]

Jerry says:The River vs The Village 
20:45
CA
Chris Aldrich says:On being a secretary: 
https://boffosocko.com/2015/11/02/on-being-a-secretary/
 
20:45
Peter Kaminski says:The River Where Black Swans Alight 
20:45
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://thepointmag.com/politics/the-bookmaker/
 
20:46
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:For Flancian: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing

On criticism of [[nate silver]]'s last book
- on the value of probabilities, bayesian thinking, etc.
- but the problem of using betting as the framework
- statistical methods are good for analysis but not necessarily good for reaching good outcomes
- #CA on the difficulty of calculating nth order effects, in particular if you need to pass a bad event to reach a better event
- #AZS criticism of effective altruism by harper’s
- #CA on [[river and village]]
[[SJ]] on https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1T0eeZoT9ZrCbRG7sm-UkiKzBO8r_vPd2X7bR6NSd9-8/edit#slide=id.p
Discussing the mind melding experiment

[[2024-08-21]]

Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff] [[Flancian]]
Discussing the mind melding experiment
- Jerry did a new Brain export, sent over Mattermost
What have we been working on?
- [[Chris Aldrich]] enjoying the summer, working in a camp :) Plus jury duty
- [[Peter Kaminski]] tried [[simplemind]] ~ [[mind mapping software]]:
  - [[opml]]
  - where to try [[flux]]:
    - https://glif.app (search for glifs with “Flux” in the name)
    - https://fal.ai/models/fal-ai/flux-pro/ (pay per GPU use, but private)
  - [[flux]] is getting close to [[midjourney]] but [[midjourney]] is still better at image aesthetics; flux is better at some things, like words
  - (on how to run local models)
  - (https://pinokio.computer/)
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - lining ducks: website, reel
  - targetting [[2024-09-10]] to launch
    - https://www.jerrymichalski.com/
  - writing [[wikily]], [[nuggets]]
    - open question:
      - how do you [[nuggetize]], then compose
    - also see: [[chunking, naming, linking]], [[link as you think]], [[link your thinking]]
  - Q: how to track authorship/state of editing in AI enabled flows?
    - PK: for now I do it by hand by typing ‘this was written by <LLM> and not yet checked’
    - JM: wiki collaborative writing conventions could help here
      - there was also a tool (Mixed Ink) that retained attribution
- [[Flancian]]
  - [[open letters]]
    - #JM recommends [[letters live]]: https://www.youtube.com/@LettersLive
      - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJvczRkQHK0
  - [[pkg book]] as a reader
- [[Aram]]
  - Working on shipping the [[timeline]]
  - Figuring out how to deal with different data exports
    - [[data subject requests]] ~ [[DSRs]]
- [[Flancian]] related to DSRs:
  - https://x.com/exgenesis
  - https://x.com/exgenesis/status/1825559564655497483
  - #AZS eleventy had a service that made it easy for people to self-host static sites based on twitter archives
    - is/was it https://twitter.11ty.dev/ ? They’re moving off Twitter to Mastodon, YouTube, Discord, GitHub
      - https://github.com/tweetback
      - my example: https://tweets.aramzs.com
    - very nice!
    - would it be actually useful to offer this as a service? given that social media is so recency-biased
    - #CA reddits and forums also deal with the lack-of-wikiness (e.g. newcomers ask the same questions over and over again)
      - it would be cool to go from ‘I’ve been writing things on twitter for years’ to ‘here is a narrative/a neobook/a story based on my writing’

[[2024-08-14]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]]
Greetings!
[[Made by Google]] announcements
- About the [[Google]] messaging strategy, or the lack thereof :)
In [[VC]] space:
- [[Butter]]:
  - https://www.butter.us
- [[Soar Scribe]]:
  - https://soarscribe.com/
  - https://try.soar.com/
[[Google Plus]]
[[meditations on moloch]]
[[trump]]
[[elon musk]]
Question: who is the leftist [[musk]]?
- Women leaders?
- Melinda Gates
Possible mediators
- [[Lex Fridman]]
- [[Sam Harris]]
[[Free Jerry’s Brain]]:
- https://github.com/zsviczian/excalibrain
- New archive incoming :)

[[2024-07-31]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]]
[[Check ins]]
- Jerry:
  - redesigning website
    - jerrymichalski.com
      - sometimes still giving issues for https://jerrymichalski.com
      - troubleshooting SSL issue
  - reel is in production
  - looking for speaking gigs
  - looking for ways to explain some concepts better:
    - neobooks
- Aram:
  - trouble with audio in jitsi, at least on firefox
  - happy with a new M1 based laptop, refurbished
  - using [[warp]]:
    - command line tool which is ai infused
    - https://www.warp.dev/warp-ai
  - working on the [[timeline]] tool, iterating on moving elements to htmx
    - could we use it within the fellowship?
    - maybe extract links from these notes, and jerry’s brain entries associated with our calls, and put them in a timeline?
    - #JM [[LATCH]]: Location, Alphabets, Time, Categories, Hierarchies
- Peter:
  - Doing good :)
- Flancian:
  - Back from Ischia!
Homework time
- We need a better word
- We want a bot to nudge us to do our homework halfway through the week (measured wed-to-tue?)
- [[aram]] https://aramzs.xyz/essays/the-internet-is-a-series-of-webs/
  - Aram looking at a series of articles about the future of the web being better than its past.
  - Aram presented for five minutes, it was awesome!
- [[semilink]] proposals
  - Task: pick a link and do a writeup on it; then discuss for five minutes.

[[2024-07-17]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]]
[[Jitsi]] recording is on
Digital [[Syphons]] as an idea
- On the one hand it makes sense to keep copies of a lot of what we see
- But what about e.g. watching a movie? Would that give you the right to share the recording? It seems not (currently).
- Chris on how the entertainment industry is shaped by this question and current events.
  - [[Streaming]] as a factor
  - [[Piracy]]
    - Example of a company recently shut down that was doing piracy on large scale as a service
  - #PK maybe we’re going into a future in which we’ll have:
    - lots of derived work based on previous work, e.g. a million star wars
    - interactive experiences
  - [[Mashups]] enhanced by AI
    - Less creativity due to derivative nature
    - But more creativity in the sheer audacity of the combinations possible?
    - #PK precedent in what happened once studio level recording/editing became widely available
      - [[Billy Eilish]] (sp?)
  - AI derived work maybe doesn’t have the ‘cultural commonality’ sapect of current artifacts
    - #PK but we can expect a few creators to be ‘outliers’, widely followed, providing commonality
    - Influencers
    - Explosion in cultural context may result in context collapse – or just something different
    - Ingroups / see communities around influencers with their own memes
    - #PK yet AIs could also be guides to such communities
    - [[Extension 765]]
- #PK from an org I’m part of, something to consider if you’re in California: “Please sign these letters to legislators, telling them that misguided AI laws will hurt startups and small companies and discourage AI innovation and investment in California.” https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeR5VrXxDJA3sJtkWDAKLH1TT0havDxmCf9PYAupxECu1BQYw/viewform
  - Oligarchy -> where the rich get to write the rules?
  - #CA “The factory cannot only look at the profit index. It must distribute wealth, culture, services, democracy. I think factory for man, not man for factory, right? The divisions between capital and labour, industry and agriculture, production and culture must be overcome. Sometimes, when I work late I see the lights of the workers working double shifts, the clerks, the engineers, and I feel like going to pay my respects.” — [[Adriano Olivetti]]
  - Typewriters and degrading industrial quality, planned obsolescence
  - #PK The [[Matthew effect]] of accumulated advantage, sometimes called the Matthew principle, is the tendency of individuals to accrue social or economic success in proportion to their initial level of popularity, friends, and wealth. It is sometimes summarized by the adage or platitude “the rich get richer and the poor get poorer”. The term was coined by sociologists Robert K. Merton and Harriet Zuckerman in 1968 and takes its name from the Parable of the Talents in the biblical Gospel of Matthew. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect as it applies to typewriter
  - #F on the form earlier: it would be nicer to have something richer that lets you both support and oppose arbitrary proposals.
    - #AZS [[HOPE]] had a session on this
      - [[polis]]:
        
        https://pol.is
        
        part of the [[computational democracy]] project: https://github.com/compdemocracy/
        
        Used by these folks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G0v
    - Aram Zucker-Scharff says: yeah, I think the big thing also is transparency from these systems.
    - Peter Kaminski says:non sequitur, if you’re an AI geek (or just AI-curious), check out Moshi: https://moshi.chat/
    - https://x.com/kyutai_labs/status/1808883086173569222
- #AZS on the US trending towards maximum craziness
  - Things have been crazy for a while to the extent that someone shooting Trump didn’t raise the bar that much
  - On trying to, and failing, to keep up – like in the early days of the Trump administration
  - The half-life of news seems shorter and shorter
  - Have been building a full [[timeline of Covid]]
  - On examples of what people/communities were able to build in the US with a glimpse of UBI and some housing stability
  - #F on how we could learn more from past information
  - #AZS [[Cory Doctorow]] gave a great talk at [[HOPE]]

[[2024-07-10]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]]
[[AI Coaching Forum]]
- will be [[Discourse]] based
- would love a demo once it’s ready
- there will be a paywall
- on the [[productivity equation]] of AI:
  - AI gives a significant productivity boost
  - so it should make it easy to give away a good fraction of content
  - lots of recent but by now historical data – e.g. how to best prompt a one year old model
    - could make for good content to publish (on a delayed schedule)
- the [[newspaper paywall]] model could also apply/have advantages
  - free articles and gifting the obligation of signing up to read them
#PK Good post by Yoshua Bengio, sections of the post include:
- For those who think AGI and ASI are impossible or are centuries in the future
- For those who think AGI is possible but only in many decades
- For those who think that we may reach AGI but not ASI
- For those who think that AGI and ASI will be kind to us
- For those who think that corporations will only design well-behaving AIs and existing laws are sufficient
- For those who think that we should accelerate AI capabilities research and not delay benefits of AGI
- For those concerned that talking about catastrophic risks will hurt efforts to mitigate short-term human-rights issues with AI
- For those concerned with the US-China cold war
- For those who think that international treaties will not work
- For those who think the genie is out of the bottle and we should just let go and avoid regulation
- For those who think that open-source AGI code and weights are the solution
- For those who think worrying about AGI is falling for Pascal’s wager
- [[Reasoning through arguments against taking AI safety seriously]]: https://yoshuabengio.org/2024/07/09/reasoning-through-arguments-against-taking-ai-safety-seriously/
#PK Ray Kurzweil, inventor / futurist / AI optimist, envisions that humans will merge with AI, which may excite you or disgust you. He has a new sequel book, “[[The Singularity Is Nearer]]: When We Merge with Computers”, and he’s doing interviews to promote the book.
- Guardian:
  https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jun/29/ray-kurzweil-google-ai-the-singularity-is-nearer
- NYT:
  https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/04/technology/ray-kurzweil-singularity.html
- Wired:
  https://www.wired.com/story/big-interview-ray-kurzweil/
- On merging with AI: [[Greg Egan]]'s [[Diaspora]] is interesting (on ways forward.)
#F on identifying with AI and the steps/slopes that way
“My (Unfiltered) Take on AI Safety” https://daveshap.substack.com/p/my-unfiltered-take-on-ai-safety
[[itbwtcl]]: “Sophisticated people deride Disneyesque entertainments as pat and saccharine, but, hey, if the result of that is to instill basically warm and sympathetic reflexes, at a preverbal level, into hundreds of millions of unlettered media-steepers, then how bad can it be? We killed a lobster in our kitchen last night and my daughter cried for an hour. The Japanese, who used to be just about the fiercest people on earth, have become infatuated with cuddly adorable cartoon characters. My own family–the people I know best–is divided about evenly between people who will probably read this essay and people who almost certainly won’t, and I can’t say for sure that one group is necessarily warmer, happier, or better-adjusted than the other.”
- whole hog and drills
- “emacs outshines…”
- #PK PDP-8 and similar experiences
  - Still rocking emacs!
- [[hackmd]] conflicts
[[bluesky agora support]]
- #PK on dropping out of social media altogether after twitter started dying
- #PK found [[openvibe]]:
  - https://openvibe.social/
    - multi-client for Mastodon, Bluesky, Nostr, Threads
- On the lack of search in the Fediverse
- #F https://tootfinder.ch does opt-in search for Mastodon
- Doing [[Bluesky first]] this month.
- #PK on [[POSSE]] and [[indieweb]]
  - micro.blog as a good example
  - is there an [[easy mode]] for indieweb that then you can build on?
  - is there a set of containers that someone could run to then give indieweb services to a group of people?
- What are some good fundations that provide infrastructure services?
  - archive.org
  - apache
  - mozilla (at times)
  - wikimedia
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Behlendorf
- [[Benetech]]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetech
[[firehose story]]
- [[chris messina]]

[[2024-07-03]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]]
Talk about Obsidian’s attraction for world building tools
- Alt: World Anvil, Campfire Writing, Scribner, fantasia archive
- Most alts are costly, Obsidian is free and popular among ‘how to use tool’ video makers
  - [[Jerry Michalski]]: that’s important!
  - [[Peter Kaminski]]
    - ai world building / interactive fiction tools / role playing (from https://ai101.peterkaminski.wiki/live_session_notes/learn_and_do_with_peter_notes,_2024-04-17):
    - “DreamGen Opus” - uncensored models fine-tuned for (steerable) story writing, chat, role-playing
      - https://huggingface.co/dreamgen/opus-v0-7b
    - “SillyTavern” - interact with text generation AIs and chat/roleplay with characters you or the community create
      - https://sillytavernai.com/
    - “GOAT-Storytelling-Agent” - Arbitrarily Long Story Writing Agent
      - https://www.blog.goat.ai/goat-st/
    - Kobold AI, Kobold Lite, KoboldCpp - browser-based front-end for AI-assisted writing with multiple local & remote AI models
    - https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/18lve2x/whats_the_difference_between_koboldcpp/
[[Jerry Michalski]] How books fail us? - https://app.thebrain.com/brain/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/122ff55a-e125-4009-8f74-b20f3a0997ce
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - Format effects what is written and what is read.
  - Twitter is useful as a writing tool because of limited input
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]: Twitter style writing with the limited input seems effective for creating forward motion.
Lacy, Tim. The Dream of a Democratic Culture: Mortimer J. Adler and the Great Books Idea. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2013 - https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Democratic-Culture-Mortimer-Intellectual/dp/0230337465?&linkCode=sl1&tag=boffosocko-20&linkId=377b8ccd203cd114ebfec8df3f2d26c1&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl
“Culture War” as a perpetual historical cycle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf

[[2024-06-19]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Flancian]]
Green screens and [[Jitsi]] < [[Meet]] < [[Zoom]]
[[Flancian]]
- Introspection and soul searching :)
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- Doing well and making progress on how to deliver educational content
- Epiphany with GenAI
  - When “most” people can generate e.g. images via GenAI, where does that leave the creator/curator/etc.?
  - The understanding of the craft is still valuable; the role might be helping people make better images/work with creative tools better
  - How will niches evolve with these changes?
    - Some people are very good at writing prompts
    - Some people have very good ideas
    - Some people are very good at ‘finishing’/touching up
- [[movies]] <-> [[games]] spectrum
- [[David]], CEO of [[Midjourney]]:
  - [[davidh]], [[David Holz]]
  - Movies (no interactivity) -> games (interactivity; game maker and player are distinct) -> [[immersive, open world simulations]] (creative interactivity, everybody is a maker)
  - [[AI Dungeon]]
  - [[Infinite Zork]]
- [[multi-level]] architectures to develop full length books; difference betwen published fiction and interactive text games blurring
[[PKM]] and [[AI]] interactions
- Interesting question the first
  - Removing distinction between finding a note and writing it on the fly
  - Tracking provenance
  - [[Color of the bits]]
    - Do we need [[EXIF for AI]] (sourcing metadata)
  - [[Marc-Antoine Parent]] - knowing the “edges” of a dataset, and knowing if/when the AI is reaching “outside” of the edges
- Interesting question the second
  - Corpus gathering
    - Original source data
    - Synthetic data
      - [[Nemotron-4 340B]], an open-source pipeline for generating synthetic data. 98 percent of the training data used to fine-tune the Instruct model is synthetic and was created using Nvidia’s pipeline.
    - Communities of practice and the potential of their corpora
  - [[Prompt router]]?
    - #PK doesn’t use them (do they exist yet?) because the top-of-the-line models (e.g. [[gpt 4o]] currently) are good enough in most aspects
    - #F But what if other models were optimistically/lazily surfaced? :)
    - It is true that sometimes you know that your model isn’t doing as good as it could do (e.g. with coding)
  - [[LMStudio]]
    - needs models in [[GGUF]]
  - Do we worry about enshittification in the AI space, e.g. [[OpenAI]]?
    - Will they be captured by capitalism?
    - Carrying the ring of power – why not have a fellowship?
    - Why be so proprietary and non-open?
  - Do we need better [[open letters]]? ;)
    - Let’s try to convince key players of the importance of the [[commons]] approach?
    - #PK working hypothesis: there’s emergent behaviors that are (massively) bigger than any individuals or groups of humans
      - fulcrum/stick; [[trimtabs]] (Buckminster Fuller)
    - #F enjoyed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwhTfyX9J34 with [[Sara Walker]], related
    - [[Deep history]]
    - #PK enjoyed 3.3 million years of stone tool complexity suggests that cumulative culture began during the Middle Pleistocene | PNAS - the beginning of social knowledge?
    - [[David Deutsch]]
      - [[The Fabric of Reality]]
      - [[The Beginning of Infinity]] <- fav
    - [[William Calvin]]
      - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Calvin
      - [[How Brains Think]]
      - [[Throwing Madonna]]
        
        Hypothesis
        
        We became unreasonably good at throwing by being bad at throwing, and then bootstrapped into having the right neuronal structures evolving for precision timing of throws. Those neural structures could then be coopted for intelligence, music, speech, etc.

[[2024-05-29]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] Late: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Flancian]]
(in media res)
On [[Jerry’s keynote]]:
- Modelled after [[April Rinne]]'s earlier.
- Keywords:
  - [[rethinking]] [[constraints]]
- [[design from trust]] – what we can unlock if we stop assuming everybody is out for the worst.
- four-s methodology <- focus of the second half of the presentation.
- About strategic thinking methods.
- [[Chris Aldrich]] Ed DeBono (sp?) thinking hats for the new millenium – related to the preaching circuit.
  - [[flancian]] aside about [[MLK]]
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] on [[Bayard Rustin]]
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] zettelkasten for MLK: https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F00151650-d518-4267-8cdb-c9b843f6e24c_1440x1198.webp
- Friday appointment :D
- On being in the [[speaker circuit]] / getting back to the arena.
  - Book question
    - What are book-equivalent projects in your past?
      - Binders of research
      - Newsletter production
      - Brain
  - [[Chris Aldrich]]: on the lifecycle of ideas. Sometimes one outgrows ideas and they drop out of conversation because of this.
    - Is [[David Allen]] tired of [[GTD]]?
  - [[Design from Trust]]: https://wiki.openglobalmind.com/projects/jerry’s_nuggets/design_from_trust_(neobook)
  - #AZS
    - need to establish authority and standing
    - need a hook into people’s attention (paraphrasing)
    - the “easiest” (or most common and socially accepted currently) way of solving both is publishing a book
    - respect for the [[POSSE]] but unsure it works for this specific problem – except for [[Cory Doctorow]]. But even he didn’t start that way. It is a solution intended for online identity as an object.
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] something that leads people to discover the thing themselves, so they want my help with it
    - #AZS
      - I sorta think the answer lies somewhere in documenting the history of the thing
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] parallels between the publishing industry and the studio system, which is mostly owned by corporations for which making films is a secondary concern (e.g. Sony is an electronics company first).
    - One of the questions that publishing houses ask is: ‘who already cares about you’.

[[2024-05-22]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
Check ins
- [[Flancian]] under a pile of work somehow! Will stay only for part of this unfortunately. But fine otherwise!
  - [[Cyberfeminism index]]: https://cyberfeminismindex.com/
- [[Jerry]]
  - Experimented with [[fungal metaphors]] and [[chat-gpt]]: https://wiki.openglobalmind.com/projects/jerry’s_nuggets/gpt-4o_riffs_on_fungal_ideas
- [[Peter]]
  - [[ChatGPT]] and memory
    - initially thought it was an “anti-feature”
    - “could you keep separate memories for different things”
    - asked them what they would call the categories around which memories were clustered
    - they suggested ‘project’ or ‘topic’
    - queried ‘books that came up in calls’, now interactively asked them to add the cyberfeminist index to a project
  - [[tools for thought]] in the age of [[conversational ai]]
    - [[assistants]] participating in meetings and facilitating them
  - [[shared memory in the commons]]
- #AZS on the risk of enshittification of chat-gpt and it turning further into a walled garden
  - what if we cease being able to export stuff from chatgpt?
  - we need browser plugins
  - [[rhizome conifer]]: https://conifer.rhizome.org/
  - [[chatgpt exporter]]: https://github.com/pionxzh/chatgpt-exporter
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - idea attribution and [[my self told my self]] :D
  - #AZS keyword: [[rendition]] as used in [[the age of surveillance capitalism]]:
    - “The prediction imperative transforms the things that we have into things that have us in order that it might render the range and richness of our world, our homes, and our bodies as behaving objects for its calculations and fabrications on the path to profit…there can be rendition without surveillance capitalism."
    - [[meta]] on the problem of search/retrieval
#F [[subconscious]] is gone/done :(
- https://subconscious.substack.com/p/subconscious-is-winding-down
#PK fwiw, i don’t have many books in my chatgpt memory yet, so the Cyberfeminism book had big influence. i asked chatgpt about more books that would fit with others, and it listed these:
- “The Fourth Industrial Revolution” by Klaus Schwab
- “Technofeminism” by Judy Wajcman
- “Data Feminism” by Catherine D’Ignazio and Lauren F. Klein
- “Weapons of Math Destruction” by Cathy O’Neil
- “Algorithms of Oppression: How Search Engines Reinforce Racism” by Safiya Umoja Noble
- “The Second Self: Computers and the Human Spirit” by Sherry Turkle
- “The Age of Surveillance Capitalism” by Shoshana Zuboff
- “How We Became Posthuman: Virtual Bodies in Cybernetics, Literature, and Informatics” by N. Katherine Hayles
- “Emergent Strategy: Shaping Change, Changing Worlds” by Adrienne Maree Brown
- “The Future of Another Timeline” by Annalee Newitz
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:Borges’s Library of Babel has EVEN MORE books than the Library of Congress!
Jerry says:that’s the cheaper version
Chris Aldrich says:“No piece of information is superior to any other. Power lies in having them all on file and then finding the connections. There are always connections; you have only to want to find them.”—Umberto Eco (Foucault’s Pendulum)
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://github.com/AramZS/aramzs.xyz
https://www.flavorwire.com/515783/brooklyn-author-recreates-borges-library-of-babel-as-infinite-website
On scraping [[kindle]] / exporting our data from there
- #PK an old (6 years) project that readwise maintained, to export kindle highlights: [TristanH/bookcision](
- #AZS I used https://clippings.io/ for the curious. Have to do a writeup on how I used it more extensively.
  https://github.com/tristanh/bookcision
[[open letters]]
- #PK like the idea but probably won’t work due to people finding it too challenging
  - an alternate approach: make things that [[commonize]] stuff; focus on improving usability of tools aligned with our goals / the good of the commons.
on manual indexing
[[semilink]] update
- [[aram]] https://aramzs.xyz/essays/the-internet-is-a-series-of-webs/
- we want a bot to nudge us to do our homework halfway through the week (measured wed-to-tue?)

[[2024-05-15]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Samuel Klein]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
On [[Google I/O]] and [[OpenAI]]'s presentation
- The [[Her]] factor of marketing
- On compentition and incentives
- The dystopia is the point https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/for-tech-ceos-the-dystopia-is-the?utm_source=pocket_saves
On [[wealth redistribution]] and giving back to creators
- Nice it if happened, but will it? It didn’t happen in earlier/non-AI stages of aggregations
- If you want the sources of information to stick around in the long term, you should give back to them?
- They keep saying profit sharing but it never happens
- [[Palo Alto]] by [[Malcolm Harris]]: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/malcolm-harris/palo-alto/9780316592031/
#AZS
- [[breakthrough technology]] vs [[breakdown technology]]
- https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/for-tech-ceos-the-dystopia-is-the?utm_source=pocket_saves
on [[maximizing shareholder value]]:
- https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/05/google-io-gemini-learnlm/678379/
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harold-meyerson-the-myth-of-maximizing-shareholder-value/2014/02/11/00cdfb14-9336-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html
- SJ says:none of it is a function of law
- SJ says:it’s all social norms
- Good book on this: “The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America―and How to Undo His Legacy”
- WIAB https://incubator.apache.org/projects/wave.html
- Jerry: What is the phenomenon where the norms that got a company or country to where they are get thrown out?
- Aram: That phenomenon is Shifting Baselines https://aramzs.xyz/glossary/shifting-baselines/
- Links collected on the open source crisis https://context.center/topics/maintaining-open-source/
- Scatter, Adapt, and Remember: How Humans Will Survive a Mass Extinction, Annalee Newitz
Google Books
- A google utopian project?
- Q: why didn’t Google join efforts with the [[Internet Archive]] then?
- [[SJ]] on the history
- Good article - https://www.wired.com/2017/04/how-google-book-search-got-lost/
- [[SJ]] lots of companies spend their $ on user or society surplus. on average, most companies don’t survive. the itnersection of those that invest in public surplus and those survive decreases over time… if you weather a downturn you probably cut out most areas of surplus. and it’s rare that it comes back
- SJ says:but coops are also companies and often defined in terms of helping one another survive downturns. let’s design future orgs and systems from good models
- https://context.center/topics/maintaining-open-source/
- https://aramzs.xyz/glossary/shifting-baselines/
The Long Next
- [[SJ]] we don’t need to ‘fix capitalism’
- SJ says:most of society still runs on other isms
- me says:+1, we want to upgrade existing systems and build more and better bridges between them
- /now and ending urls with /json and /md to get JSON and MD versions of the data respectively. Standard data sharing flows.
- Webfinger
- Webmention
- ActivityPub
- https://github.com/jhass/nodeinfo
  - https://codeberg.org/thefederationinfo/nodeinfo_metadata_survey
Ideas for shared projects
- Frame the fellowship as a community of practice, use knowledge tools together and showcase/present the results
- Organize classes in digital knowledge tools
- Take all our notes and artifacts and feed them to an LLM
- Run a semilink (seminar) series
  - One link 15m session - 3m, about link, 5m about discussion, then a wrapup. Embed the link in the full history of its context.
Let’s come back next week with ideas in any form you want and present
- We’ll call it [[semilink]] as per Samuel’s
- everyone has to bring one half-baked link and one potential person to include 😉

[[2024-05-01]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
[[Check ins]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] – just back from constructive protests :)
  - #JM On polarization vs support of ‘sides’
    - #PK And proponents of a cause vs destabilizers
    - #PK “‘Outside agitators’ descended on Columbia campus to radicalize students: Eric Adams”
      https://nypost.com/2024/05/01/us-news/hundreds-of-protesters-arrested-at-columbia-as-anti-israel-group-calls-for-support/
    - #AZS The NYPD said they couldn’t find any actual non-students
    - #AZS NYPD walked back some earlier statements
  - #CA This was an interesting take about campus protests recently: The only thing university administrators had to do was NOTHING. by [[Dave Karpf]]
  - #AZS on the issue of double-standards. Some students are disruptive on campus, pretty much always – but response is sometimes disproportionate.
  - #F about university autonomy
    - Same rules than elsewhere, but in this case the administration invited the police in.
  - #AZS https://twitter.com/BFriedmanDC/status/1785683633270829403 https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1785682880963780785 https://twitter.com/outlivethemnyc/status/1785508769859875219
  - This vs 1968
  - https://www.insidehighered.com/news/governance/executive-leadership/2024/04/29/presidents-grapple-how-respond-student-protesters
  - #CA the students are relatively better informed on most of these issues than the average citizen (but they will have to fight prejudices?)
  - #JM what should we do about this?
    - Tolerate protest
    - Telling people to protest differently is usually not productive
    - Dis-investment movement will probably not work
    - Respond with facts – carry a factsheet, #AZS did this in campus years :)
  - #F naive position / on campus as safe debate spaces ideally
  - #AZS Collection of campus protest links: https://aramzs.xyz/topic/academia/
  - Israel vs Palestine as one of the hardest issues to debate due to the difficulty of reaching ‘ground truth’.
  - On deescalation not being a function that the police force has historically, even though it was the right function here.
  - On the boundaries between hate speech and free speech
  - #JM https://dangerousspeech.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Benesch
  - #CA [[schrodinger’s douchebag]]: One who makes douchebag statements, particularly sexist, racist or otherwise bigoted ones, then decides whether they were “just joking” or dead serious based on whether other people in the group approve or not. (via https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schrodinger’s douchebag
    )
Check ins
- Flancian: what did I miss in the last few sessions? :)
  - New potential member!
  - [[founders letter]] and [[open letter]] idea
  - two questions ;)
    - do companies have no real encoded principles other than making more money? :(
      - maybe the founders were well meaning but they were naive millionaires
    - is this a good idea or a bad one?
      - https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/
- Jerry: will [[generative AI]] survive capitalism?
  - Peter: and vice-versa :)
  - On the issue of bait-and-switch
  - Is capitalism strictly evil or not?
    - Devil’s advocate: capitalism is not necessarily toxic, but we have ended up with the cancerous kind
    - Variants of Capitalism: https://bra.in/5vmPJj
  - #PK you need to ‘hack culture’ to codify the values that would actually counteract the constant pressure to make money
  - #AZS on what levers can realistically effect change in a large corporation
  - #PK frame it as a cautionary tale: don’t let what happened to Google happen to your company
  - On open source:
    https://www.computerworld.com/article/2074112/software-vendors-dump-open-source-go-for-the-cash-grab.html
    https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/08/17/1077498/future-open-source/
    https://thenewstack.io/open-source-needs-maintainers-but-how-can-they-get-paid/
On Google revolts:
- https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/apr/27/google-project-nimbus-israel
- “It’s difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair
- https://www.seattletimes.com/business/google-employee-who-played-key-role-in-protest-of-contract-with-israel-quits/
- https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/02/18/magazine/google-revolt.html

[[2024-04-03]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[SJ]]
[[Check ins]]
- (Nazis sucked)
- Emigration alternatives
  - German option
  - Netherlands
  - Spain
- Second Trump term would suck as well (in a different way)
  - What’s wrong with the [[democratic party]]?
  - https://bra.in/2j9rrx
  - https://www.axios.com/2024/04/02/biden-gaza-blank-ballots-new-york-democratic-primary
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States
  - https://bra.in/4j32Rr
  - [[Ezra Klein]]'s take on [[Biden]]
  - [[beyond left melancholy]]: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/beyond-left-melancholy-proctor
- [[SJ]]:
  - I would like your comments / feedback on two constructive things!
  - 1: this (shareable) series of 5 short [[one pagers]] on [[open science]]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/155sDqLGqPTEsGB9ZuYY9LNbOHZU8_DqBcc_812rthcE/
  - 2: [[knowledge integrity project]]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ixbVNtKnsPpUEwJSKm1kpxGzgm5A0CGiLrxD51lqwoE

[[2024-03-20]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
[[Aram]]
- [[build a website]]:
  - https://aramzs.me/baw -> https://aramzs.github.io/build-a-website/#/
- on [[fenced frame]]:
  - https://wicg.github.io/fenced-frame/
[[Peter]]
- Working on courses, teaching people: [[chatgpt]] [[obsidian]] [[midjourney]]
- On getting from there to ‘products’
  - Experimenting with ‘pay what you want’ with the obsidian one
  - Midjourney is $5/mo.
  - On the topic of curating/heavily editing/not publishing everything
  - Currently using [[gumroad]].
  - On contributing to the commons?
  - [[AZS]] you are generating a lot – how are you doing it?
    - [[PK]] have a lot of prepared prompts. Midjourney is also very well tuned to produce nice images, and it does so even with almost random prompts.
    - [[PK]] Midjourney doesn’t allow programmatic access in their terms of service.
    - [[AZS]] uses Midjourney to generate material for DMing, characters and maps.
    - [[AZS]] can you creative commons AI images given that you can’t copyright them? Maybe they are only [[public domain]]?
    - Can we just train further AIs on those and leave copyright behind? :)
  - [[Pete’s Courses]]:
    - [[Path shift people]]: https://pathshiftpeople.gumroad.com/
    - [[AI 101]]: https://ai101.peterkaminski.wiki/
    - the “beginner’s curriculum” i’ve started working on:
      https://ai101.peterkaminski.wiki/ai_101_building_blocks
[[Eduardo]]
- Participating in the [[Fediversalist Papers]] in 1h
- Helping organize a [[GenAI hackathon]] at the day job
On how to combine massive wiki / agora with new AI tools?

[[2024-03-13]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]]
Daylight savings excitement :)
- [[flancian]] now moved the next two instances to an earlier timeslot in EU
[[check ins]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] doing well, also with writing projects, but car not doing so well
- [[Peter Kaminski]] read about [[hookmark]]:
  - [[mac os]] only
  - https://hookproductivity.com/help/integration/using-hook-with-obsidian/
  - on [[deep links]] and [[uri schemes]]
  - [[Jerry]] on [[elgato stream pad]] and macro programming
  - [[david bovill]] and [[liquid democracy]]
    - https://bra.in/2qZEZB
- [[Flancian]] is using [[betula]] for bookmarks, e.g. https://links.flancia.org/
  - https://betula.mycorrhiza.wiki/ for more on it
  - federates
  - new https://anagora.org homepage
    - thanks for the bug report on weird behavior from embedding docs :)
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - trying to succintly explain the thread connecting all the things I’m working on
  - some overhead in figuring out links between all projects
Where do we want to go from here?
- Last time we discussed [[composer]]
- [[Neobooks]]
  - [[Flancian]] On [[Pattern Languages]]
    - [[Meta Pattern Language]]
    - take N top PLs and integrate them?
    - #JM on [[liberating structures]] which is an [[almost pattern language]]
      - [[flancian]] is interested in the class
      - #JM can envision a zoom/meet widget that helps facilitate meetings and run e.g. [[1 1 2 4 all]]: https://www.liberatingstructures.com/1-1-2-4-all/
      - In general an LLM interface to PLs
    - #CA reminds me of [[brian eno’s]] [[oblique strategies]]
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies
    - “Announcing JSON Canvas: an open file format for infinite canvas data - Obsidian” https://obsidian.md/blog/json-canvas/
  - #CA been working on a [[neobook]] (that I wasn’t calling as such)
    - structuring one for https://pkmsummit.com/
  - #PK And interesting news: “Announcing JSON Canvas: an open file format for infinite canvas data - Obsidian”
    https://obsidian.md/blog/json-canvas/
- [[Flancian]] is a huge fan of [[silverbullet]]
- [[Peter Kaminski]] working on [[Midjourney]] and [[LLM]] classes
  - Working on a simple frontend for [[LLMs]]
  - Calling it [[salamander]]
    - CLI and Flask
- #CA Notes from 1w-2w ago when we were talking about [[neobooks]] and a possible pipeline
  - having a repository of ideas
    - generally indexed or interlinked
  - having a tool for creating an outline
  - having a tool to go from outline to full text
  - similar preexisting tools in this space:
    - tools that take URLs and create ‘books’ for people to read as pdf or mobi
  - #CA Here’s some of the prior art research on these sorts of reading lists: https://indieweb.org/reading_list
  - #FL would like to experiment with this last process in particular (outline to full text, set of nodes to text)
  - #PK A fast, free image viewer I use for sifting through thousands of images: Phoenix Slides https://blyt.net/phxslides/

[[2024-03-06]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Samuel Klein]]
[[Check ins]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] shows us his Zettelkasten
  - 8 thousand approx. in one drawer (!)
  - But the background drawers hold many tens of thousands
  - [[flancian]] thought about digitizing?
  - [[aram zucker-scharff]] for backup purposes
    - https://simonwillison.net/2024/Feb/21/gemini-pro-video/ as a possible strategy for backups
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - on [[Bahrain]] https://photos.app.goo.gl/S2MVcGm7Rg6VbAta9
  - on being a [[Beard]]
    - vs a [[Merkin]]
  - [[DXOS]] demo on [[Free Jerry’s Brain]] call
    - we’ll use [[composer]] for note taking
  - Q: freedom status of the brain?
    - Pete is looking into connecting the brain to GPT
- [[Peter Kaminski]]: [[composer]] demo
  - https://tinyurl.com/3cfysbvp
- On one [[opencollective]] shutting down – and three not doing so and doing well (?).
  - https://blog.opencollective.com/open-collective-official-statement-ocf-dissolution/
- is [[composer]] and the [[local first]] approach without deep [[interlinking]]
  - better to invest on something simpler that can be gathered by the internet archive?
  - [[metasj]] would like something with incremental statements about provenance instead of high barrier to entry
  - [[metasj]] and definitely something that the [[internet archive]] can archive
  - strong privacy / strong identity is part of the requirements of the project
  - #CA I’m reminded here of https://linkingmanifesto.org/
  - #SJ says:chris: nice 😃 [[pdurbin]] likes to be “slopi” https://github.com/pdurbin/slopi-communication
  - #CA https://indieweb.org/local_first
  - on the limitations of the distributed-first approach, and whether they are inherent to the model or just tend to produce interfaces of a particular kind
  - #AZS on [[glitch]]
- [[metasj]] on [[Flickr Commons]] and [[WikiPortraits]]
  - #JM [[storycorps]] meets [[tiktok]]

[[2024-02-28]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Samuel Klein]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
On [[neobooks]]
- The [[BFDL]] concept as it applies to this project :)
- Reference [[neobook]]/first [[neobook]]
- [[nuggetization]]
  - how it relates to translating between [[worldviews]]
  - The difficulty of finding editors to work with to help work them into neobooks
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
  - it seems likely that [[nuggets]] that are intended to be used within a [[neobook]] are going to be even harder to integrate elsewhere once “enhanced” by AI
  - AI will tend to ‘overwrite’ towards a particular problem
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] would agree, and in the case we’re discussing the AI expansion made the end result harder to process. But AI in general seems like a powertool: it can be used with skill and make you go faster, but they can get out of control.
  - [[Flancian]] on maybe defining nugget as ‘human written’ or at least ‘full of human meaning/curated by a human’.
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] have you thought about going from Agora nodes to books/other format?
    - As per <reference></reference>
      - The Spectator newspaper from the early 1700s
      - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spectator_(1711)
    - [[the case for books]] by [[Robert Darnton]] as an anthology “book” comprised of previously written magazine articles
- Precedents for [[nuggetization]] and [[composition]]
  - composition:
    - as per the above examples
  - nuggetization
    - wiki culture
- Repository of good nuggets?
  - https://wiki.openglobalmind.com/search
    - Q: how do you do search?
    - A: [[LUNR]]. https://stork-search.net/ also exists.
  - https://hypothes.is/users/chrisaldrich
- [[indie search]]:
  - [[static search]]: https://context.center/topics/indie-search/#search-for-static-sites

[[2024-02-21]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Samuel Klein]]
- ([[Bentley Davis]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Chris Aldrich]] might join)
[[check ins]]
- [[Peter Kaminski]]
  - working on an [[AI newsletter]]:
    - https://store.pathshiftpeople.com/l/pretty-pictures-with-pete
  - and the [[Plex dispatch]]:
    - inter community newsletter for [[OGM]] and other related communities
    - https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/2024-02-07/ for the latest
  - [[meta]] Q: how much time per newsletter?
    - Plex: 6-8h per issue
    - AI: still unsure, but it’s probably 1h for each (a few times a week).
  - on doing away with stock photography
    - legal insurance apparently is a factor here
    - is this a risk if we replace more stock photography companies with fewer AI companies?
      - maybe but it’s not a very democratic industry/market to begin with
    - on [[distracted boyfriend]] and how that was produced
  - would [[pixelthesia]] scale to millions of images?
    - it’s [[smugmug]] underneath
    - [[pixelthesia]]: https://www.pixelthesia.ai/
    - on [[toy story]] and the affordances it provided early in the development of computer graphics
    - on the pipeline from unique distinguishing factor to ‘given’
  - #JM on [[creativity inc]]
  - on [[Sora]] and other pushback against current approaches
  - #JM on mispredicting the future
- [[Jerry Michalski]] thinking about the Metaverse in preparation for Bahrain
  - [[issues with the metaverse]]:
    - [[ergonomics]]
    - [[interpersonal]] limitations
  - #SJ but [[head up displays]] are great
  - on [[ambient computing]]
    - and [[plug and play]] everything: e.g. [[battery packs]] for cars
- [[Flancian]]
  - any progress on finding or building the [[generative commons]]?
    - [[mistral]] is great
    - [[huggingchat]] is solid
    - #JM https://generativecommons.org
      - https://bra.in/2qzKJ6
    - #SJ https://publicai.network and https://gen.studio
      - have been running a seminar for people building infrastructure
      - people from a dozen countries working on their own projects
      - there’s definitely potential in this
      - let’s start a stone soup
    - #JM should we start a plan?
      - +1
      - #SJ I like starting with a namespace
        
        in order to call it a commons we need to:
        
        have a namespace
        
        a mechanism for classifying
        
        people seem interested in participating in a commons in general, but we need to have one we can point to as successful
        
        it probably needs to be as general as possible, close to just a set of thing
      - the [[generative commons]] could include:
        
        [[corpora]]
        
        [[generated outputs]]
      - the default interface could be a playground connecting sources, prompts to outputs
        
        [[prompt router]] with flows to contribute back to the commons
    - #JM my approach was very intentional
    - #PK pays for [[stealth mode]] in [[midjourney]]
    - #SJ whatever this commons is, it should be a good place to develop alternatives to services provided by corporations
      - The commons could be a better market than the market, decouple also provider/producer communities from walled gardens (and empower them)
    - #JM [[AI Salon]] https://www.meetup.com/the-ai-salon/
    - #JM [[nanopub]]: https://nanopub.net/
      - [[nanodash]]: https://nanodash.knowledgepixels.com/explore?id=RAxPdvy5RN-jyPOMcBNEsUEn2CPBtAa3W0Ct3tbID4PiM
    - #PK [[nostr]] and [[nips]]
    - on the problem of [[moderation]] and how it relates to [[commons]]
      - [[governing the commons]]
  - [[huggingchat]]
    - #SJ has [[midjourney]] produced a commons by default?
  - found (and really like) [[silver bullet]] == [[silverbullet.md]]
[[gemma]]:
- https://opensource.googleblog.com/2024/02/building-open-models-responsibly-gemini-era.html

[[2024-02-14]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
[[check ins]]
- [[Flancian]]
  - sick again :( but not terrible
  - still dealing with labour and interpersonal issues at work, but getting better
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - will be in [[Bahrain]] for a panel, connected with the grand prix and the [[metaverse]]
  - long flights, in particular on the way back!
    - might read + write
  - [[masters of the air]] like [[band of brothers]] but not as good
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - Joining a meetup! [[Tinderbox]] podcast
    - Sunday 18th, 9am-10:30 Pacific
    - #JM did that podcast: https://bra.in/2qeYrg
  - [[Tinderbox meetup]]: https://forum.eastgate.com/c/events-for-tinderbox-storyspace/13
Next Monday: [[free Jerry’s brain]] demo, [[1PM Pacific]]
- [[rich burdon]]
- distributed open source platform, own your own data
- [[braneframe]]: https://www.braneframe.com
- [[dxos]]: https://dxos.org
Topics from last time
- [[autopoiesis]]
- [[neobooks]]
[[collective authoring]] as distinct from the basics of [[book publishing]]
- the default sort of social interaction so far for neobooks are github/git forge fork-and-send-PRs
- are there any less geeky ways to contribute/interact?
  - commenting systems
  - [[hypothes.is]]
- do we need an analog for copy-and-paste for how to collaborate in a distributed mesh of documents?
  - [[conflict resolution]] is one part of this
  - we can check the variety of wikis that are built on top of [[git]] plus [[markdown]] plus [[wikilinks]]
- there is a reason we end up with git as a backend; the alternatives are more computationally expensive, require servers or parties to run software.
- [[google docs]] as a model maybe – the comments-only access is something we might want an equivalent for
  - [[etherpad]]
  - something built on [[crdt]]
  - #push [[P2]]
    - Editing collaboratively meets comment threading via https://wordpress.com/p2/
- on the topic of group memory; how not to start every conversation with a relatively blank slate
  - [[denormalization]] and [[cross posting]] of notes
  - [[posse]]: https://indieweb.org/POSSE
[[cross posting]] of [[bluesky]] and the [[federation]]
- https://snarfed.org/2024-01-21_moderate-people-not-code
- https://snarfed.org/2024-02-05_52058
- #AZS wish there were different models of federation
  - on being more focused on being broadcasters than collectors
- #CA how do we map thousands of years of social evolution onto the possibilities of digital communities
  - [[the internet con]] by [[doctorow]] makes the case that we should go towards smaller distributed communities that can make their decisions
  - on how choosing an instance or platform is also about choosing what one wants to signal (or broadcast)
  - [[posse]] lets you pick and choose which communities you cross-post to; if you’re [[indieweb]] first you probably don’t care as much about the visibility that one single instance has over the rest of the fediverse
  - #AZS people are not necessarily posting on social media with the assumption that everybody will care; they assume there is in practice a small neighborhood. That is true until it isn’t (see e.g. unexpected virality)
  - #JM about [[boundaries]]: a well functioning group understands its boundaries and its norms
    - and expectations
#CA [[Book Club]] on [[Cataloging the World]] and Index, A History of the
- https://boffosocko.com/2024/02/11/book-club-on-cataloging-the-world-and-index-a-history-of-the/
- [[Dan Allosso]]
[[Intimacy Gradient]]
- Expectations around where and when you expect people to engage with you.
- Maybe we could carry our own ‘terms of service’ / privacy and engagement settings in a platform-agnostic way
- #CA media has adapted and changed in its standards as well; newspapers in the early 20th century had completely different standards w.r.t. privacy expectations than towards the end.
- On evolving [[civility standards]]
  - [[Trump]] exploiting this
Need different spaces and contexts where it one can be in rough notes, drafty, professional, etc…

[[2024-02-07]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Bentley Davis]]
[[NeoBooks]] how to lower the bar both technologically as well as from a community perspective
Notes in [[Jerry’s Brain]]: https://bra.in/9vAgo3

[[2023-01-31]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] (Half time) [[Peter Kaminski]]
Round the table
- January is gone! But the year is only just started ;)
- [[Jerry]]
  - Met an [[NLP]] master, in the [[neurolinguistic programming]] sense
    - [[family constellations]]
      - facilitated exercise, elicited emotions in several
      - family structure as it influences personality development
      - exercise recommended
    - [[Bert Hellinger]] :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Hellinger
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] dealing with team reorgs
  - Also pushing forward on code projects like [[song obsessed]]
    - Looking at http://www.liveplasma.com/ for integration into the site
  - Looking forward to next week – vacation in a cabin!
    - With someone who bakes bread \o/
- [[Peter Kaminski]] connecting GPT and the brain!
  - [[curl]] was hanging
    - wasn’t specifying ‘don’t search full text’ thing, it was super slow
    - full text search doesn’t really seem to work in the Brain API
    - will try to report the bug to tech support
    - the idea is to make gpt call the brain api
    - (on the pros and cons of using the gpt marketplace approach vs server-side calling both the [[brain api]] and the [[openai api]])
  - https://ai101.peterkaminski.wiki/let’s_build_an_api_and_a_gpt,_2023-12-05
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - recovering
  - working on a [[book project]] and trying to figure out how that relates to [[neobooks]] as per ongoing conversations
- [[Flancian]]
  - working on worker relations
    - [[aram]] on that at the post
      - shift to more traditional engineering organization structure
      - would like to see more stability soon
      - [[chris aldrich]] contact [[Ben Werdmuller]] from [[indieweb]] now heading up technology at [[pro publica]]
  - but took two days to visit [[Thun]]
FotL Nuggets
- “Assignment for Next Call: Everyone Write a Nugget about Something Memorable from These Calls”
- [[aram zucker-scharff]] Aggregation, Amplification, and Archiving - Fellowship of the Link
  - [[comment section]] is just github issues
  - would love all feedback/responses!
- [[Flancian]] cheated and made my nugget the node [[nuggets]] in the Agora :)
  - https://anagora.org/nuggets is/will be a list of all known nuggets we mention
- [[Chris Aldrich]] on the [[Dahlonega Nugget]], a newspaper in a gold rush town :)
  - His daughter named a stuffed racoon toy she got there “Nugget”
- [[Peter Kaminski]] some feedback on [[nugget]] as a name, from a conversation with other people:
  - too concrete
  - and too “[[nounish]]” and not “[[verbish]]” enough
    - or, too much of an object, and not enough of a process
    - The (Hopi) World According to Whorf
  - what would the verb be?
    - part of it would be an adjective, “composable” (and thence, decomposable)
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] also got some feedback on the focus on the book aspect – maybe it’s good to recenter from the object to the community
    - Note though that verb-centric languages are a minority
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] related dissonance in the note taking space and the tension between different “levels” (e.g. from note to section to book)
    - Everybody’s perspective will be different
    - How do you reuse a whole chapter?
      - [[Jerry]] Chapter size would be too large likely. They might be
  - [[Flancian]] maybe similar
    - and types
    - [[node]] as verb from [[everything2]]
    - [[Jerry]] on mediawiki
      - [[flancian]] on [[semantic mediawiki]]
      - [[Jerry]] some experiences in the past, was turned off by page renaming not rippling back – some clunkyness
      - [[Peter Kaminski]] set it up :)
      - [[Chris Aldrich]] on the tradeoff between flexibility and complexity (and clunkiness)
        
        Example from [[drupal]]
Ben Werdmuller to Propublica
Meta/vocabulary check on whether we want to iterate on the [[nugget]] terminology.
- Pro: something valuable and small-ish; memorable.
- #PK in feedback it seems like people might focus on different attributes; what is key to me from the thing is the [[composability]]
- [[Jerry]] [[mother]] from [[SCOBY]]
- [[legos]] but better?
- planting seeds and [[grafting]]?
- threads and knitting, weaving
- [[quipus]]
  - different
  - but in the same “universe”
- [[pearls]] (as nuggets of value) and [[purls]] (as in [[purl stitch]])
- [[pattern]]?
  - too large
- [[particle]]
- would [[fragment]] describe it?
  - it makes it seem as it’s incomplete
- an [[x]], or a [[nugget]]:
  - is [[complete]] yet [[composable]]
- How does this notion relate to the concept of neobook? Should we use something which is a book-related metaphor?
- #CA or from the idea of playlists, call them “music”
- #CA [[thesaurus]] as ‘repository for treasure’
- [[jewels]] and [[indra’s net]]
- [[trichobezoars]] and [[ambergris]]
- further on grain metaphor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horreum

[[2023-01-24]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]]
[[Jerry Michalski]] and [[Peter Kaminski]] on a productive call about [[massive wiki]] and lots more!
- Next Wednesday is [[Massive Wiki Wednesday]]
- 1h30m later than this call
- Will cover the future of Massive Wiki
Could we have a dashboard of all [[calls]] in our space
- #PK has something Google Sheets based, using Sheets as a grid/table editor
  - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qjSuYW1xChKJNCLK_cyMjJO_Ejc53RDYwRcvtRONLY0/edit
  - Pete is proud of the timezone legend columns at the left
  - stopped updating in Sheets because some boxes and their borders span multiple cells; like overall look, but need a better grid editor that is better at multiple cell boxes
- Present as a neobook?
  - Shared agenda
[[Flancian]]
- Open letters and neobooks
- Looking at open letters in history
- https://bra.in/2jM4Qe
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- How is it different from a viral post
[[Flancian]]
- Intention
- Notion of who is reading
- Some level of meta awareness
- There are some similarities
- Neobooks and how they connect
  - Same shape as an Agora node
  - Open letters are hugely interesting.
  - They get amplified with history
  - Similarly new media
  - The internet evolves similar
[[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
- Also a useful characteristic to think of for both neobooks and open letters is portability
  - +1, and publishing has been a key factor in which open letters became popular/“successful” for a purpose in the past. MLK’s publishing story is interesting
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- composability
- https://bra.in/3jgE2p
- Manifestos - too many authors have robbed them of a degree of their potency?
[[Aram]] an interesting characteristic of open letters:
- in modern times open letters are implied to have many authors, or have been created with a degree of anonymity
- [[letter on corpulence]] :)
- on expanding circles of trust
- [[google docs]] as defacto publishing platform
- #JM about inspirations for [[neobooks]]
  - [[nuggets]] are supposed to be small yet valuable
  - [[indra’s net]]
    - -> [[fritjof capra]]
    - -> the fear
  - [[glass bead game]]
    - -> [[neuromancer]]
  - are [[neobooks]]:
    - [[nuggets]] as objects
      - they have [[metadata]]
      - and [[ordering]]
    - [[linked]]
    - and [[transcluded]]?
  - [[anything missing]]?
    - aggregation?
      - MVP is: a new nugget which transcludes everything in a list
    - Ordering?
    - Contexting?
      - Can be seen as 1. composition and 2. a type system.
    - [[extraclusion]]
      - ‘take this part of this page and publish it there’
      - this sounds a lot like [[push]] in the Agora
    - ability to include/exclude e.g. headers
      - rich contextual snippets – [[oembed]] like
      - embed modes? Full, [[oembed]], brief?
    - would like to conceptually transclude or aggregate a number of pages, and I want that to be the corpus or knowledge base for a chat bot
      - throw a [[lasso]] around a set of nuggets and produce something with them
      - -> like a doc, to begin with simply
      - -> [[fruiting bodies]]
        
        leads back to the notion of multiple language levels on top of languages, which we have covered before
        
        neobooks are Mushrooms from The Big Fungus - https://app.thebrain.com/brain/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/51b0b67d-d333-435d-af18-7f0194683289
      - -> on context as user set prompt
    - [[open letters]] in the brain: https://app.thebrain.com/brain/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/a030353f-c917-3d29-fc19-70912f8aef80
    - See assignment section below -> let’s all produce one [[nugget]] for next week? something having to do with the fellowship directly or indirectly :)
which direction to go to now?
- [[nugget a week]]
  - [[webmentions]] would be ideal
    - [[bridgy fed]] by [[snarfed]]
      - some concerns about the difficulty of self-hosting
      - for now some consider it a SPOF
      - ideal model could be: something that works like nostr, where you can just point your system to a set of bridgy fed instances and it balances
  - we can start by posting to the mattermost challenge – links to anything
  - [[IETF]]: a protocol is not ready until you have two independent implementations
    - the maybe-problem of [[Mastodon]]
      - [[Mastodon]] copies Twitter too much
      - [[Mastodon]] does not do enough
    - [[twitter is not a microphone]] https://www.schizochronotopia.com/p/on-twitter-we-look-down
      - [[meta]] on [[substack]] as a hosting platform
        
        [[micro.blog]] as federated alternative maybe?
        
        c.f. something open like https://github.com/tsileo/microblog.pub ?
        
        what about the [[payment]] aspect of it? it’s important for many writers.
        
        [[ghost]] is very opinionated engineering
        
        #PK observes that Ghost has a great post editing interface, and the email newsletter distribution works well
        
        [[beehiiv]] is also focused on newsletters
        
        [[buttondown]]
        
        [[aram]] on the challenges of independent tools in this space – in particular the problem of email deliverability (negotiating automated anti-spam false positives as it affects newsletters)

Assignment

Compose a 1 paragraph nugget on something that struck you in a [[FotL]] meeting

[[2023-01-17]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]]
[[flancian]] on [[layoffs]] :(
- and [[Barbarians]], the [[Market]], maybe [[Moloch]])
[[Jerry Michalski]] on [[neobooks]]
- [[Design from Trust]]
  - Like a [[books playlist]]
- Meta on how to write [[neobooks]]
- [[Markdown extension levels]]
  - [[Peter Kaminski]]
  - [[agora protocol]]
  - [[github links]]

[[2023-12-20]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Flancian]]
On end of the year and the year as it was
On [[sizzle reels]]
- [[April Rinne]]: https://vimeo.com/885454720?share=copy
- on [[GPTV]] and [[Pika]]
- on [[storyboard generator]]
[[Topics]]
- [[flancian]] has a demo :)
  - as part of [[december adventure]]
  - [[mistral]] integration :)
  - on [[neobooks]]
- [[michael grossman]] thoughts about objects and [[personal archiving]]
  - how to help people [[inventory]] and deal with facts in their lives
  - this is particularly relevant for older people maybe
  - would like to:
    - help people know what they have
    - and their value as it relates with e.g. online markets
    - [[passive marketplace]] and also [[not a marketplace]]
  - [[jerry michalski]]
    - take pictures of spines of books
  - #MG From the Tenement museum, people tell stories attached to objects:
    https://yourstory.tenement.org/stories
- [[jerry michalski]] [[thinking like a neobook]]
- [[aram zucker-scharff]]
  - working on a demo of a media player and website configuration that lets you build static pages but have them act in a single page application style way, with the particularity that the media player is sticky/always on top while you browse around the site

[[2023-12-06]]

Attending: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Bentley]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]]
Checkins
- Health issues galore
  - [[Slime]] / [[cold]]
  - [[Malaria]]
  - and other [[Parasites]] :(
- [[poop bank]] idea
  - on transporting biomes
  - [[against the grain]]: a book
    - [[cooked]] and [[uncooked]] people
    - [[age old divide]]: [[city]] vs [[countryside]]
      - [[murray bookchin]]
- on sarcastic vs earnest AIs
What’s on our minds?
- [[AIs]] as per the above
- [[Publishing industry]] woes
  - #JM on [[April]]'s experience: most publishers are picking top 2-3 books to advertise/market and not marketing the others at all
    - she participated in ~100 podcasts.
    - [[book]]: https://fluxmindset.com
- [[Neobook]]:
  - #JM [[Books]] are rollups of [[nuggets]]
  - #CA which licensing are you putting on the books you’re writing?
    - #JM CC0 is the default
  - #CA are you aware of [[OER]]: [[Open Educational Resources]]?
    - https://bra.in/2vNAeW
    - https://boffosocko.com/2018/08/30/the-sixth-r-of-open-educational-resources-oer/
  - [[neobooks]]:
    - [[design from trust]]:
      - https://wiki.openglobalmind.com/projects/jerry’s_nuggets/dft_book_contents_(the_toc)
      - https://link.agor.ai/nuggets-are-really-powerful is interesting
      - on [[types]] of [[nuggets]] and their [[outputs]]
    - and three-four more :)
    - #CA on [[webmentions]] as a framework for communicating derivative work – on getting [[linkbacks]]
    - [[flancian]] [[webfinger]] for communicating about users/authors and [[webmentions]] for communicating about [[nuggets]]?
    - #CA [[marginalia]] using [[indieweb]]: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog
    - #JM https://www.workings.tools/p/wonkish-obsidian-footnotes-as-sidenotes
    - #CA [[the great conversation]]: “the reason you want to read Aristotle and Plato is that they started a conversation we’re still having thousands of years later”.
    - #CA https://mitpressonpubpub.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/syyor4ra/release/1#commentary-and-the-talmud as an exam
- [[Agora]] + [[December Adventure]] updates

[[2023-11-29]]

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]]
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- Teaching AI to people.
- Got back into [[NFTs]].
  - Platform for AI art.
  - [[Midjourney]] art.
    - Some of it rises into fine art territory.
- [[Thessos]] [[hic et nunc]] [[thea]]
- [[question for this group]]
  - looking for a new [[mastodon]] server
  - [[flancian]] likes social.coop :D
  - [[chris aldrich]] have you considered building [[activitypub]] into [[massive wiki]]?
    - [[pk]] some concerns with how AP works as a protocol, how the community innovates
      - [[nostr]] seems more promising community wise maybe
      - [[aram zucker-scharff]] interesting; I like the protocol but never felt like they had any community development
      - [[pk]] likes the [[NIP]]s
      - [[activitypub]] is more traditional governance wise
      - [[azs]] interesting, from my perspective it seems like the opposite! take e.g. [[pixelhub]] doing independent development of [[ap]]
      - [[ca]] https://phanpy.social/#/universeodon.com/s/111478703259005044?view=full
      - [[ca]] wordpress is working on being [[activitypub]] compatible
      - [[peter kaminski]] [[ghost]] with [[activitypub]] seems really nice
      - [[flancian]] it seems like it is near mainstream.
        
        planning on adding support to the [[agora]]
        
        [[bouncepaw]] added it to [[betula]]
      - [[azs]] it seems like it’s winning for the ‘event feed’ space
    - [[bluesky]] as compared to [[activitypub]] and [[nostr]]
  - on the pitfalls of being in a small [[mastodon]] instance
    - you don’t know what you don’t know: you’ll only see very few hashtags
  - on the fragmentation of the fediverse due to no platform supporting all content types/activities
    - [[mastodon]]
    - [[pixelfed]]
    - [[peertube]]
    - [[write freely]]
  - on what [[wordpress]] managed to pull off
    - [[automattic]]
    - on the [[tumblr]] [[activitypub]] promise
  - [[ca]]
    - [[micro.blog]] is a good social reader for reading blogs, mastodon, etc.
      - Here’s the reader version of my website in micro.blog: https://micro.blog/chrisaldrich@boffosocko.com
    - I’m thinking some of the problems of supporting all the things are related to [[Ross Ashby]]'s law of requisite variety: https://www.edge.org/response-detail/27150
  - on [[adaptive interfaces]]
    - quality that comes out of limitations (e.g. twitter surfacing only a tiny text box to write – or index cards)
    - ideal writing interfaces?
      - [[twitter]]
      - [[ghost]]
      - [[typora]]
      - [[bear]]
  - [[factr]]
  - [[sweetcron]] https://code.google.com/archive/p/sweetcron/
    - something like this should exist but it doesn’t seem like it currently does?
  - [[flancian]] on the idea of the [[signup router]] and integrating activitypub streams onto a higher level ‘person’ (or circle?) entity
  - [[ca]] I think all the variations of cross-posting and their directionality are documented here: https://indieweb.org/cross-posting
    - Dec 16-17 [[indieweb camp]] in person: https://indieweb.org/2023/SD

[[2023-11-08]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Michael Grossman]]
- GPTs new feature from open AI
- https://openai.com/blog/introducing-gpts
  - Aram: Potentially helping out on licencing.
- Alternative being worked on - https://poe.com/login
  - Can be monitized.
- OpenAI is crap at billing and that makes accessing new features that are gated behind a payment level hard.
- https://questy.ai/
- AI Entrepreneurship
  - https://myhub.ai/
  - Thinking about how to start stuff up around AI and how they can get marketing and startup help.
  - Special interest group of AI entrepreneurs.
  - What do we do with large language models and the brain?
  - [[AI + Knowledge Graphs]]
- #push [[TheClimateWeb]]
  - Climate Change materials and research in the Brain app - a commercial product.
  - http://www.theclimateweb.com/
- Climate
  - Chris: Interesting look at some of the problems around informing people and the history here in [[The Parrot and the Igloo: Climate and the Science of Denial]] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56769547-the-parrot-and-the-igloo?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=WHye3QAKxt&rank=1
  - Also check out [[Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming]]
  - Peter: von Humboldt’s observation re:climate is ca. 1819. https://blog.biodiversitylibrary.org/2020/10/alexander-von-humboldt.html#:~:text=It was also in Cumana,climate change and destroy ecosystems
    - Jerry: https://www.alternet.org/2019/09/alexander-von-humboldt-the-first-person-to-understand-climate-change-more-than-200-years-ago
  - Aram: Some explainers I found on this that were pretty good - https://context.center/topics/climate-change/#explainers
    - And a collection on dealing with misinformation - https://context.center/topics/misinformation/#dealing-with-misinformation
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol
  - https://www.versobooks.com/products/2649-how-to-blow-up-a-pipeline
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey_Wrench_Gang
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Attali
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
  - Good on blair mountain - https://youtu.be/CGGWcFArufA?si=dFZH_Y1ngppfvTWR
- https://www.gawker.com/politics/the-joe-manchin-trolley-problem
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(historical_analysis)

[[2023-10-18]]

Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Eduardo Ivanec]]
- Possible projects
  - [[social rerere]]
  - [[knowledge commons]] extension for [[obsidian]], [[vscode]]
    - lets you hook up vaults/repos with e.g. [[massive wiki]], [[agora]], other projects in this space.
  - [[plugins]] are the way to go
  - [[chris aldrich]] if you can put together something that solves ‘publishing’ for free (obsidian sync-like)
- We had a ‘split community’ situation today because of Jitsi + Meet
  - We’ll be converging onto Zoom from now on for a few iterations as Jitsi is not working great sometimes, and Meet doesn’t support recordings
  - Expect the link to be: <link>
- More on sync
  - [[synthing]] works quite well with obsidian, and is non-tech-user-friendly
- [[neobooks]] next week
  - on transclusion: https://prosefusion.cloud/git_and_github_notes/pete’s_git_tips_and_tricks/git_tips_and_tricks
  - looking forward to write!

[[2023-10-11]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Samuel Klein]]
- context.center has gotten hooked up successfully with the Agora!
  - differences with linebreak interpretations
  - Interesting to see a paywalled personal wiki - https://wiki.nikiv.dev/web/search-engines
  - B/c Agora is not looking at JSON it doesn’t pull in the archived articles, but that’s ok it prob shouldn’t.
- discussing #PAIN ~ [[public ai network]] ~ https://publicai.network/
  - (missed the beginning)
  - [[metasj]] mix of closed and open models
    - half of the project is to create a shared vocabulary; half is putting together the community (incl. public institutions) to build a commons
    - national models – e.g. gpt-sw3
    - [[aram zucker-scharff]] hadn’t heard of these national models/sweden case, would love to read more about that
    - [[pk]] + [[metasj]] https://www.ai.se/en/node/81535/gpt-sw3
    - [[aram zucker-scharff]] on the potential of public data loss
- what else do we want to take on today?
  - [[flancian]] [[neobooks]]
  - extending the [[102 great ideas]] project and other friendly-parasitical (symbiotic) projects
  - or extending [[pattern language]]
    - [[metasj]] [[patternity test]] https://wiki.c2.com/?PatternityTest
    - [[Adler]] | [[Alexander]] | [[Gunkel]]
    - [[dewey system]] for pattern languages?
      - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Decimal_Classification replaces it?
      - [[metasj]]
        
        there’s an initiative to normalize the UDC and have it replace the DDS in the US
        
        even people at WorldCat are thinking about it (and they’re not particularly bias-free)
        
        [[bruck fikru]]
  - [[jerry michalski]] what about the decolonizing version of [[102 great ideas]]
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Otlet
  - [[peter kaminski]] current LLM corpuses are large but not very inclusive of libraries
  - are people working towards getting national libraries into LLMs?
    - a lot of things are not yet scanned
    - which proportion made it already?
    - on the titanic battle brewing over copyright/ip
    - see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Wars_(film)
- on the legal battles that are coming
  - [[pk]] think they might peter out / be settled in private
    - on the possible outcome being [[pay to play]] / [[open ai]] pulling the ladder (and complaining while they do it)
  - [[mistral]]
  - [[brainstorming]] [[open letters]] ;)

[[2023-09-27]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
On traffic controllers and Reagan
- Ongoing strikes: writers, actors. There is high public approval for these.
- On the sustainability of the GOP being anti-labour.
- How did the republicans end up being middle-america/“popular” and the democrats end up being “intellectual”?
- What about some new parties for a change ;)
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] https://twitter.com/bcmerchant/status/1706898148692762627 - discussion about luddism in hackernews
- On coopting the language of labour.
- [[the making of donald trump]] mentions [[4000 lawsuits]].
- [[Jerry Michalski]] on the weird hybrid of [[obamacare]] and the so called [[death panels]]
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel
  - do we need a ‘media drumbeat’ to push back against this kind of thing?
  - where?
- on the take “[[podcasts]] have become right wing media”
  - content policies are harder to enforce in audio land as it’s easy to distribute (unlike video) and not too easy to parse/consume/detect (unlike text) (for now?).
- [[vtaiwan]]
  - to reduce flamewars, they removed the reply feature (!)
  - [[chris aldrich]] on newspapers removing comments sections – and their history.
    - [[free speech]] vs [[free reach]]
    - https://www.wired.com/story/free-speech-is-not-the-same-as-free-reach/
  - [[aram]] actually users are still really engaged with comments sections – the reason that most publishers took them down was the moderation burden
    - comments-to-article pipelines were working quite well when they were being run
  - [[flancian]] on the [[moderation commons]]
    - on quote tweets
    - an ongoing proposal: generalizing fediblock
  - [[jerry michalski]]
    - early aol forums
    - name recognition of forum handles
  - [[aram zucker-scharff]]
    - on different approaches to comments
      - [[indieweb]]: you don’t have normal replies to a post, you have to create a new post and link it to what you’re commenting on
      - [[twitter]] and quote tweets
      - [[activitypub]] and [[mastodon]] design decisions (in particular not supporting)
[[neobooks]]
- one of Jerry’s collaborators uses google docs instead of obsidian
- [[chris aldrich]] how do you leave signposts to see resources elsewhere? e.g. in wikipedia, in an agora, etc.
- [[jerry michalski]] maintains a neighborhood visibility aspect in his brain
- [[chris aldrich]] [[zettelkasten]] has this in the sense of always having physical neighbors to the current index card
- [[102 great ideas]] https://boffosocko.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/102-Ideas.jpg
- [[great books of the western world]] https://books.google.com/books?id=p0gEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA92&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
- on feeding the [[noosphere]]
  - is it a good term?
Check ins
Shared projects
- #push [[fotl projects]]
  - [[intertwingle]] our notes together
  - write [[neobooks]]

[[2023-09-20]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]]
Check ins
- [[Jerry Michalski]] would be interested in being hired for more presentations/speeches
  - On [[cyborg]] as a term, some people apparently object to the term?
  - ([[Jitsi]] melted down at this point)
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] on [[Cyborgness]] - video cued to the specific part of the discusion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvYcunuF3Eo&t=1709s
  - On babies reaching into ipads
  - [[digital retinas]]
Useful open source video editing with
- [[OpenShot]] - https://www.openshot.org/
- avidemux
- Drop into Quicktime
[[flancian]] presentation (maybe): https://anagora.org/go/agora-slides
- three facets
  - a space - the definition of an agora the one best known
    - public, mostly virtual, but has semi public sub-spaces (stoas). Different groups met in the different spaces and allowed people to join in and be part of something.
    - Go beyond the commons concern of the market
  - A distributed knowledge graph
    - Give it a list or repositories or resources and the agora will try to mash them together, find connections, find patterns, connect them.
  - A social network
    - an integration between social graphs and knowledge graphs and hopefully will make it part of the fediverse and t/f give it a clearer part of the social network concept.
- Both a vision and a hypothesis
  - pro-social subsets of the internet would benefit from wide availability of a free [[interlay]] (as in the [[underlay project]]) provisioned and governed by a community as a commons.
  - For the common good.
  - Follow the principles of a commons.
  - Develop tools and instructions to make it more likely that such a connective layer arrises with these characteristics.
  - The agora is not good enough yet to be the connective layer but aims to be a bootstrap.
- Note taking, wiki building, web annotating, communities, seem to have unique opportunity at hand. Possible to self-organize in cooperative groups and set up ways to federate within a commons.
- Find common patterns and exploit them using the system where we can.
- Design principles
  - Simple as possible
  - Leverage existing conventions and formats
  - bootstrap and build better ones from the bootstrap
- Key characteristics
  - free software enabling a community to provision a basic knowledge commons
  - requires little of would be integrators and give back generously to participating communities.
  - inclusive and makes use of existing conventions, formats, tools, and networks for as long as practical.
- Architecture
  - Agora Bridge
    - Software
    - User repositories
    - Social media
    - …
    - Imports users’ repositories every 30s and handles them. Usually git. Takes MassiveWiki and Social Media
  - Agora root repository
    - List of repositories
    - Configuration and bootstrap procedures
    - Base content
  - Agora Server
    - Software
    - Web interface
    - Interlink procedures
    - Accessed by browser
    - Python and Flask server
    - Points to a root repository and with those resources attempt to find the patterns and pull out nodes which then get served to the user.
    - May present notes on the same node by different users across different contexts.
- Node
  - High level entity
  - Location on the knowledge graph
  - Can hold information from multiple users and join different files
  - Node can have Subnodes by different authors.
  - Links in Nodes will be seen and link those nodes together at the Agora level.
  - Nodes are social
  - See anagora.org/nodes for visualization
  - Common patterns:
    - [[Digital Garden Note]]
    - [[Blog Post ]]
    - [[Personal Wiki Page]]
    - [[Journal]]
    - [[Node Club]]
  - You can agree on a slice for a concept and then right away start coordinating - exactly like using a hashtag
    - Socail media works with hashtags to integrate into this concept.
    - Agora lets you hashtag anywhere
- Stoas
  - Social too
  - Locaitons that act as semi public spaces
  - Set up a hedge doc that is totally anonymous.
  - Will get processed into the Angora within 30 sec.
  - Etherpad and Jitsi both can get pulled in to a Stoas.
- Heavily uses iFrames whenever possible
- Default empty pages are a call to action
- How to join!
  - Take notes in your fav tool
  - Publish in platform - usually git.
  - Let an Agora maintainer know about it.
- Wikilinks everywhere
  - Edges are [[wikilinks]] which refer to other nodes as found in volunteered subnodes
- Idea of composing notes
  - Some notes have special behavior
  - [[go]] notes - #go url or [[go/foo]]
  - [[pull]] - bring in the resource at bar with #pull bar
  - [[push]] - push out the resource to foo with #push foo

[[2023-09-06]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[David Pickrell]], [[Flancian]], [[Michael Grossman]]
Introductions
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
  - Lead engineering for years on [[Pressforward]]
  - tool making experience as it interacts with the indyweb
  - current project: how we link note tools together. personally using [[eleventy]] based [[context.center]]
- [[Flancian]]
  - welcome [[David]]!
  - SRE by profession here, knowledge commons/graphs tinkerer by hobby :)
  - [[agora]] ~ https://anagora.org is my main project in this space
- [[Michael Grossman]]
  - designer - editor - archivist - activist
  - interested in [[information meritocracy]]
  - working on a platform named [[factor]]
  - hanging out in [[ogm]] for a while
  - https://factr.com
  - https://collaborative.tech
  - worked in magazines previously
    - maybe the [[20th century]] was the [[magazine century]] – there weren’t many before then, and it looks like there won’t be many after it
- [[David Pickrell]]
  - itinerant “software salesman” :)
  - focused on helping people solve problems with software
  - one pitch for the group: son-in-law works on book.io which is a publishing environment that tries to empower authors
    - unique covers for each of the books (NFT space, in the cardano chain)
    - they release unique digital books at 20-30 USD a piece
    - moving to do audio
  - long time [[brain]] user
What’s on people’s minds?
- [[Michael Grossman]] curious to ask David about book.io – there are public domain works with many covers, how does that work?
  - artists working with GenAI
- [[Jerry Michalski]] is book.io a scarcity play or a publisher which is trying to be useful to creators?
  - it tries to be the second
  - targets mostly self-publishing authors currently
  - every time a book gets resold, the author gets a percentage
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
  - write professionally, would like to use editors more, and would not like to use them for free.
  - would like to use such a platform to give participating editors a cut of produced works.
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - reviewed some books in book.io
    - there is no translator information for translations of public domain books, e.g. [[anna karenina]]
Presentation on the Agora?
- 20th of September – the date is set! :D
Fediverse and Agora integration in the works
- note taking in the fediverse: exploring this space
- [[AZS]] don’t know anything in this space.
  - obsidian can push to the agora, then the agora can provide activitypub services
- [[Chris Aldrich]] there is potential for UI innovation in this space, something beyond streams
- wikilinks everywhere :D
[[does chatgpt obsolete notetaking]]
- [[AZS]] typical AI-disruption-take.
  - These are tools for thinking and not just for ingestion.
  - our computers/mobile phones already turn us into cyborgs; AI just adds another layer to this
  - human intervention is what gives these things/outputs a value
- [[CA]] note taking is a ratchet
  - “chat-gpt, build me something like the ethereum network to distribute books”
    - we’re not anywhere near there yet.
    - “what is the next thing”, in the sense of Einstein in 1904, is not something that this level of AI can solve.
  - [[JM]] unclear on whether LLMs can only regurgigate known things or can actually improve on them – compare with e.g. alphago coming up with novel moves
- [[Michael Grossman]] podcast: https://a16z.simplecast.com/episodes/a-true-second-brain-xrODaBD2
  - on [[Nat Eliason]]
  - being able to take notes over years and put them into a model which you can then query/search
  - a certain type of note taking will be much more useful than in the old days
  - surfacing the note that somebody you trust has shared with you is what’s golden
- [[Jerry Michalski]] when Google came out, we outsourced our memories to Google
  - proponent of humans-in-the-loop
  - [[AZS]] [[technology is a tool, not an outcome]]
- [[David Pickrell]] recording/transcription services you can add to meetings.
  - using [[ChatGPT]] can help get a sense of material but might not help actually learn that material
  - [[JM]] [[story threads]]
- [[AZS]] wikipedia is essentially the biggest collection of knowledge, yet people also get degrees
chat / link dump

[[2023-08-30]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Flancian]], [[Samuel Klein]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Michael Grossman]]
Check ins
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - Took the full July off and did a family cruise to Alaska :)
  - Not as rainy as expected, gorgeous scenery
  - Q: did you keep a journal/notebook?
  - A: did, but haven’t done anything with it yet
- [[Jerry Michalski]] One question that came up in a recent conversation: now that AI is around, do we need to still bother to take notes/curate links? :)
  - Yes :D
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] AI as it is now is interesting but it lacks:
    - a [[compass]].
    - a [[ratchet]].
      - it can aggregate/conglomerate but it won’t choose a solution or direction for you.
- [[Flancian]]
  - Read [[Engelbart]] over the summer and it was very interested in the context of GenAI developments/this conversation
    - https://social.coop/@flancian/110720124777315271
    - Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework By Douglas C. Engelbart October 1962
      - https://via.hypothes.is/https://dougengelbart.org/content/view/138 (Copy with Hypothesis annotations)
- [[Samuel Klein]]
  - [[e. e. kim]]]
  - on the potential of [[marginalia]] and [[inter-linealia]] (?)
  - Purple numbers: https://eekim.com/software/purple/purple.html
  - and the use of color maybe?
    - culturally dependent
    - #JM uses purple for opinions and yellow to call attention to things
Topics

[[2023-08-16]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[V]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Michael Grossman]]
Check ins
- Welcome [[V]]!
  - [[V]] loves federated systems, has been building those since the 2000s/2010s
    - Neighbours with Jerry!
- [[Michael Grossman]]
  - Doing well
  - Thoughts on living on confiscated land
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - On the concept of [[wokeness]] as it’s weaponized by the right
  - Worried about how the concept of [[woke]] is maybe seen as toxic also by some progressives now?
  - On the “anti-reclaiming” of terms
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
  - On providing sources and timelines relevant to things
  - As a way to reverse [[context collapse]] and how it relates to the goals of the fellowship
- [[Flancian]]
  - On the [[Agora]] as a prototype for “simply” federating ideas and definitions
  - And precisely to push back against concept collapse and understand our points of contact and also of divergence
- [[V]]
  - This conversation reminds me of [[dialectics]]
  - The Agora can be seen as a tool to enable dialectics (thesis antithesis synthesis) / help communities go through this process
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - [[argumentation theory]] maybe generalizes this
  - other tools in the [[debate]] space
- [[Flancian]] on agreeing on definitions and more generally on procedures to resolve definitions
  - Maybe on defining a [[default commons]] as an advantage for a group that tries this
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
  - The libertarian concept of finding an answer is what we get by default nowadays: different websites compete to provide the “best answer”
  - But there is more than one answer to each problem based on context/expected use
  - [[V]] on contextual ranking in the Agora: ranking results based on relevance for your social context
  - Maybe thinking of [[positive opt-in community filter bubbles]]
- [[Michael Grossman]]
  - On delegating filtering to friends/communities as it relates to [[liquid democracy]]
  - On [[owning your social graph]]
on [[liquid democracy]] :)
- https://bra.in/9jYawA
- https://anagora.org/liquid-democracy
- [[colorado]] experiment
- on its potential side effects:
  - [[depolarization]]
  - promoting higher dimensionality thinking
  - promoting thinking about interesting problems in categories
  - promoting thinking about relative expertise of individuals
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- on [[yelling louder]] “forcing the stack”
- on [[darvo]]
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    - ah, this is just fascist politicking as defined in stuff like https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism
    - [[small government]] usually means withdrawing support from causes
[[Jerry Michalski]] on [[five minute universities]]
- lightning classes: 5 minutes for presenting, 5 minutes for questions, follow up conversation happens later
- video on [[the great transformation]]
- Jerry Michalski says: https://bra.in/2qa2BE
- Interested in making timelines with 11ty? [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] is looking for testers of https://github.com/AramZS/timelinety based on https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

[[2023-08-09]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Michael Grossman]]
[[climate change]]
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2023/08/02/southamerica-record-winter-heat-argentina-chile/
- [[global citizenship]]
  - prepare now to give climate refugees: an identity, a nationality, internet connection, internet services
  - what does citizenship mean now and in the future?
  - snow crash vs star trek
  - cory doctorow’s [[walkaway]]
    - also [[catalog of missing devices]]
  - on modelling solutions to big problems
  - https://blogs.worldbank.org/dev4peace/how-many-years-do-refugees-stay-exile
    - on averages
      - [[The End of Average]]: How We Succeed in a World That Values Sameness (2016)
      - on (jet) fighter seats
      - on the old belief that people used to live very little
  - on cancers :(
    - When did people start understanding what cancer was?
      - https://chat.openai.com/share/3d3e3f93-9449-420a-914f-bc27c4912a49
        
        In the late 1850’s, “Virchow was the first to correctly link the origin of cancers from otherwise normal cells, believing that cancer is caused by severe irritation in the tissues (the ‘chronic irritation theory’). Not all of his work was correct, however. He also proposed that cancer spreads around the body by the spread of the irritation in liquid form.”
      - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5665122/)
[[flancian]] progress on https://link.agor.ai – ready for your perusal and/or joining :)
how do we take the outputs of all the calls we’re in and do more with them?
- [[peter kaminski]] working on some automation for downloading e.g. zoom call logs
- Vincent (who?) is working in this space as well
- [[dogsheep]] and tools to help users get out of [[walled gardens]]
[[peter kaminski]] some links to share and a question :)
Stowe Boyd has gotten deep into [[Obsidian]]:
https://medium.com/workings/more-on-tufte-style-sidenotes-db61d3d8dce0

Ink and Switch: Upwelling: Combining real-time collaboration with version control for writers.

By combining elements of real-time collaboration with ideas from version control systems, Upwelling supports writers in maintaining their creative privacy and editors in ensuring accurate results.

Democratic databases: science on GitHub | Nature

https://cloudisland.nz/@dinosaur/110851324071181980

I have had the uncomfortable impression that the space of decentralized projects is constantly reinventing Git-like concepts under different names. So I am personally going to explore how much we can directly leverage Git rather than reinventing eventually-consistent databases and reconciliation protocols.

question
- git is amazing and we love it, it is awesome, etc. – we love it.
- however it’s an obstacle for massivewiki – great for 85% of cases but breaking the remainder of 15%
- a recent obsidian experiment was accumulating frustrations – until we switched to obsidian sync and all woes went away
- note [[massive wiki builder]] is now [[massive wiki publisher]]
- what is your experience with [[git]]?
  - [[jerry michalski]]: too arcane to use.
- question :)
  - maybe we don’t need all the fancy stuff of git?
  - [[syncthing]] is not good enough – our use case is same files + version log of them
- is it crazy to ditch git and try to roll our own service for syncing?
  - [[flancian]] default answer: yes :) we should try to better package/complement git first
  - this could also do auto-merge of wiki-like “conflicts”
[[michael grossman]] paradigms for information gathering and dealing with the notion that we live in [[push world]]
- moderation and filtering are our best efforts now
- but what we really want is a [[pull world]] – where we make available what we want to share, and we choose what we want in our timelines (opt-in)

[[2023-08-02]]

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Flancian]]
GPT4 + integrated code interpreter
(Missed Chris’s update due to a call)
Jerry’s experiences in Geneva.
- Museum under the cathedral.
- Art from [[children who have survived genocides]].
#CA
- Speaking of fortresses and intellectual history, I did find a 10 million slip zettelkasten in the Bavarian Royal Family’s old palace:
  https://boffosocko.com/2023/07/24/vocabulary-notebooks-criminally-insane-asylum-patients-zettelkasten-the-thesaurus-linguae-latinae-and-digital-dictionaries/
- [[Thesaurus Linguae Latinae]]
#PK
- “L’Escalade - Wikipedia” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L’Escalade
Hello to [[SJ]] remotely!
- Discussed his updates, thank you Samuel!
- Compare [[Go links]] with the old InterWiki work
#JK on the conference to reduce fragmentation in the open source community/communities
- https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-congress/
On the [[indictment of donald trump]]
On alternatives to [[twitter]/[[x]]: [[third spaces]]
- [[nostr]]
- [[threads]]
- [[bluesky]]
- [[mastodon]]
- but what we ‘lost’ won’t be fully recovered
- then again, this is true for every community of the past
- [[social text]] and [[seed wiki]] for Jerry
Climate change news
- what does it take to convince people at large this is real; convince them that donald trump is a felon; etc.
- side question: how many people do we want to convince and why?
- on governance in the future
How to convince people? What works for mass persuasion?
- Why Doesn’t Politics Focus on Deep Relationships? https://bra.in/7vArza
- Misinformation Context - https://context.center/topics/misinformation/
- https://twitter.com/TheGreenLineTO
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPZQ13kh7U
- Why Doesn’t Politics Focus on Deep Relationships? https://bra.in/7vArza
- Jerry Michalski says:the NYT articles on Portland: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/29/us/portland-oregon-fentanyl-homeless.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/31/health/portland-oregon-drugs.html
- [[Chris Aldrich]] on the idea of critical thinking as layered on top of christianity, which caused the earlier to go into a very specific direction
  - Q: do democracies require critical thinkers?
[[Go links]]!
- #SJ there is a version of these in [[xanadu]] and in [[early wikis]]
- for some reason we stopped thinking of browsers as a place to do additional/indirection/substitution work
- Gather examples somewhere to talk of what we can do with them and how they work?
- As a means of search
- Resolution of websites more broadly?
- Customizing your cascade of Go providers as a method of search?
  - [[flancian]] +100
- Could be useful for resolving non traditional URLs like Hyper, Gemini, Onion, etc…
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] MVP Idea:
  - List your Go Link resolvers with any URL your browser can resolve
  - They provide /go/x mapping
  - Browser extention pulls autocomplete from a sitemap of the /go/x providers and lets you store local /go/x links.
  - Does this exist?
  - Could expand to archiving the links as well and then the /go/x provider checks if the links are live and decides to route you to the live or archived link.
- Previous experiences with Go links in the group?
  - Peter Kaminski has some in the shape of interwiki links
  - SisterSites has some similarities with this and interwiki links
  - Could we build these on top of e.g. nostr or ActivityPub
    - Yes, definitely
- On link.agor.ai and how it provides go links already if you want to try :)
  - Trying out adding my own system - https://github.com/flancian/link.agor.ai/pull/1/files

[[2023-07-19]] ?

[[SJ]] waving hello remotely.
- Added a thread to follow up on, above. As part of that: I’d like to have a clear standard for hub/cascade-based resolution that can be referenced at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Go_links (perhaps w/ cross-references to how DNS and package-resolution and other routing specs do this)
- Also looking to formalize how we link different global entity graphs (System.com, Golden, proprietary graphs, Wikidata), formalize how well-sourced each statement is (via an explicit Wikicite w/ metadata about confidence + contextual applicability), and either declare similarity + crosswalks b/t them (A is meant to be a copy of B; A is derived from B,C, and judgement) or indicate none is known
- Haven’t forgotten the postcard art project, but it was delayed by a house move !

[[2023-07-12]]

[[Flancian]] interested in an Agora demo next week? :) ++++!
- Will happen in August once Jerry’s back.
Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Flancian]]
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- Launched a course on ChatGPT for businesses
- <3 link?
[[Michael Grossman]]
- On administering a [[commons]] – lake case study
- Political alignment as it interacts with lake issues
- How to structure information spread
- [[Sensemaking]] would be in order :)
[[Flancian]]
- [[Social.coop]]
  - Runs on [[mastodon]], [[loomio]], [[matrix]]
  - [[bonfire]] as a potential evolution
  - On the barrer to entry to [[matrix]]
[[Michael Grossman]] went to [[dweb]]
- [[Progressive Decentralization]] was a hot topic
- Easier to agree on a long term goal than on intermediate ones
- Easier to get people on mastodon (currently) than on e.g. matrix
  - [[SJ] was there too but didn’t get to hang out enough :)
Possible [[high leverage points]] currently:
- [[alternativeto]] for everything
- [[signup router]] for decentralized/federated systems
- [[prompt router]] for generative ai
- Ethical [[bridges]] provider
[[Utopian]] position
- Before everybody knows which side of the issue is red or blue, push the idea that:
  - All the digital information that we generate belongs to the people
  - Marketplace of service providers
  - A la [[Solid]] by [[TBL]]?
    - He was in [[dweb]]!
  - [[Roger McNamee]] - the guy who wrote [[Zucked]]
- Meeting that happens on Fridays at 9am PT
  - [[End Surveillance Capitalism]]
    - -> https://esc.fyi
  - How to organize/contribute without starting Yet Another Organization in a crowded environment
Category: easy to conceive, hard/impossible to build
[[Michael Grossman]] People want the right to be private and the right to share
- Making a stand before party lines are drawn

[[2023-07-05]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
Check ins
- Aram
  - Launching [[Privacy Rights]] for Colorado, Connecticut and Utah.
    - [[Do Not Sell]] laws in the first two already launched.
    - Utah’s launches Dec 21st.
  - [[GPC signal]] - globalprivacycontrol.org/
    - Control for allowing users to set their defaults
  - Flancian: coincidental with data rights discussion in the Fediverse
    - Aram: interoperability assurances/requirements that comes with these changes
    - We should be able to load up our [[Twitter archive]] into the Fediverse, [[mastodon]], [[bluesky]], etc.
    - #Fedipact as a hashtag.
      - Some people are saying that they won’t federate period with Meta and others are saying they need particular conditions met.
      - That’s a more interesting proposal than the one in the main fedipact site?
- Jerry Michalski
  - On being a good cyborg
    - Being part of the [[noosphere]], building the wrapper around the earth
  - Won’t be around for next one or next three
    - 2w in Baja California
      - Attending workshop with April
        
        For writers and +1s
      - Modern Elder Academy: https://www.modernelderacademy.com/
        
        Take old buildings and turn them into hotels
    - Then another in Geneva \o/
      - Facilitating a summit meeting to try to reduce [[open source fragmentation]]
      - On the intent of writing a declaration, credo, etc.
      - July 26th Wednesday is the event
      - Travelling back home on the 30th
      - 29th should be free
- Flancian
  - If the fellowship is interested we could do an Agora demo in the first meeting of Aug
  - Aram: we could also discuss of implementation
    - Rust project
      - orgora -> [[org mode]] for the Agora is in the Rust
      - [[logseq]] supports org mode
      - https://anagora.org/org-mode for pointers on the format, in particular the cheatsheet: http://xahlee.info/emacs/emacs/emacs_org_markup.html
    - Why [[rust]]?
      - Very good fit for high cpu/high ram/very intensive workloads
      - Expressive yet also low level
      - Type system
        
        Aram: interesting how it wraps values in different kinds of structures to avoid errors
      - https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ https://rust-book.cs.brown.edu/ch00-00-introduction.html
  - [[John Perry Barlow]]
    - [[Agora]] mini-demo
    - [[The Brain]] mini-demo
      - Jerry Michalski
        
        [[cheat sheet]] https://bra.in/9jbXxk
      - Jerry Michalski says: and the 25 principles:
        
        [[seven principles for belonging]] https://bra.in/5pWbYo
    - [[Agora]]/[[The Brain]] feature to generate essays from nodes
[[Noosphere]]
- https://bra.in/5jggN2
Agenda
- [[Flancian]]
  - on #Fedipact
  - (see above)
- Opportunity for doing something for open source
  - Link to the fellowship
  - Leaving a commons to future generations
- Any [[high leverage opportunities]] we can spot?
- [[generative commons]]
  - [[generative linking]] (inferring links)
  - [[general commons agreement]] https://bra.in/8qeNWy
- [[wishlist]] approach to worldbuilding
- [[Jerry Michalski]] let’s discuss: note sharing.
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] let’s discuss conventions? Added something in [[massive wiki]].
    - volunteered https://tftmap.massive.wiki/map/aram_zucker-scharff
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he’s been working on.
- [[Flancian]] would like to discuss [[Interwiki]] links and the [[common hub]] approach for search and entity resolution
#push [[fotl threads]]
- define:
  - [[wiki]] / root URL
  - /now
  - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
    - [[github]] by default?

[[2023-06-28]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Peter Kaminski]]
OBS playtime!
What is the issue with trying to find the correct software, still no winners
What is the attraction of Gathertown?
https://flowimmersive.com/tricast
Jerry: What can help make Open Source better, I’m going to a conference on this.
- Aram: we need BOTH interoperability AND data portability but that is hard because those are different things and there is nothing forcing people to adhere to a format.

[[2023-06-21]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
[[ActivityPub]] expands with Reddit departures
- [[Lemmy]]
- [[Kbin]]
- Why it is so hard to get off Twitter
Community for cyborgs
Community software?
- [[Mighty Networks]]
  - [[Purpose: Design a Community & Change Your Life—A Step-by-Step Guide to Finding Your Purpose and Making It Matter]] by [[Gina Bianchini]]
- [[NodeBB]]
- [[Hylo]]
WordHack - I went the first time.
[[The Apple II Age: How the Computer Became Personal]] by [[Laine Nooney]]

[[2023-06-07]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Shaun smurp]], [[Flancian]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Michael Grossman]]
Apple Vision Pro
- https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/06/introducing-apple-vision-pro/
- Flancian: reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(novel)
- Aram: Changes in the acceptable behavior in Zoom meetings.
- On strapping a macbook to your face :)
- Price might be high because they want to go after rich people, executives, bosses, trend setters
- Michael Grossman: the choice architecture and price is such that it distinguishes them from meta/occulus
- Peter Kaminski: the face hugger
- Aram: I think it is about the pieces more than the whole, once your boss gets a vertual self everyone will want one and once you get a hang of gesture control, everyone will want that, much healthier than being stuck with a mouse and keyboard.
- Flancian: Cognitive Artifacts in AR
- smurp:
  - http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/2901
  - Gather Town
- Aram: Think like a Steam Deck in terms of life impact.
- Jerry:
  - CIE Scope Diagram
  - Wireless communication, handwriting and speech recognition, unified messaging and more. All of these would eventually crystallize in the iPhone Steve Jobs wowed the world with in 2007. We didn’t invent the iPhone, but we pointed toward it in 1991.
- Reminds me of 3D desktop - https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gyoergy-Molnar-2/publication/285056765/figure/fig3/AS:301247929307139@1448834511611/3D-Desktop-source-own-figure.png

[[2023-05-31]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Michael Grossman]], [[Flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Peter Kaminski]]
[[Bentley Davis]]
- Been playing around with Massive Wiki instead of doing what he was supposed to do ;)
- Play/exploration!
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]] so what’s new in Massive Wiki land?
- Making git and git related workflows easier to use.
- (missed a lot of this due to a conflict)
[[Bentley Davis]]
- How would we ideally share data?
- Types:
  - transclude
  - copy
  - copy and link
[[Flancian]]
- on transclusion and copying as they are supported by [[agora server]] and [[agora bridge]] currently
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- How to have cross-tool or tool-agnostic collaboration?
[[Flancian]]
- Proposal: a protocol for forking and merging text, plus tools that make it accessible for less-technical-users?
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- We can probably learn from:
  - [[microformats]]
  - [[pingbacks]] from indieweb
  - Peter Kaminski says:another thing to maybe look at is [[Syncthing]] and its [[Block Exchange Protocol]]
[[Flancian]]
- On [[ogm.agor.ai]] which now sort of exists, with three repos :)
- Is [[OGM]] the right umbrella term here?
- [[Peter Kaminski]]
  - We probably want to consider an entity with some governance structure
    - [[flotilla]] for example
  - [[FOTL]]
  - [[OGM]] subverts the idea of an organization structure :)
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- [[Bovill]] wants to mash up fedwiki, tiddlywiki and massive wiki – https://app.thebrain.com/brain/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/21b90ebd-dd91-4e3d-b58f-b1a77194f9b2
[[Chris Aldrich]]
- Been following group of teachers and professors and researchers that are using commonbook-like and zettelkasten-like methods to teach in classrooms.
- Will try to do a half-day course/BarCamp on these topics
- #jm is there a good place to catch up on what modern [[zettelkasten]] looks like?
  - #ca the most modern take is still very [[luhmann]]-esque
  - https://boffosocko.com/2023/05/30/zettelkasten-pedagogy-meeup/
  - There’s https://zettelkasten.eu and a dedicated reddit
- #ca On [[building a second brain]] getting very popular, to the extent it’s muddied the waters of what is a very long historical tradition
  - Prefer to approach the space starting from the basics (keeping it simple / with a minimal set of rules)
  - You need to be clear on why you’re doing zettelkasten-like, what is the expected output
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] https://forum.obsidian.md/tag/zettelkasten and Honest Alternatives to Zettelkasten - Knowledge management - Obsidian Forum
  - #ca on cargo cult of zettelkasten: https://boffosocko.com/2023/02/03/a-note-on-the-cargo-cult-of-zettelkasten/
- #push [[OKN]]
  - [[Michael Grossman]] on the relationship between [[PKM]] and [[OKN]]
    - [[okn]] ~ [[open knowledge network]]
    - the common pool should be precisely an [[open knowledge network]]
    - on https://new.nsf.gov/funding/opportunities/building-prototype-open-knowledge-network-proto

[[2023-05-24]]

a [[meeting]]
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Bentley Davis]]
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- Massive Wiki + 11ty being worked on by Bentley Davis
- https://github.com/BentleyDavis/mwb11ty
- https://github.com/BentleyDavis/mw-deploy
- https://github.com/BentleyDavis/massive-wiki
- He had an idea of using something clientside that just pulls github files in the client.
- Zircon - the ability to edit this page like an old style wiki on Massive Wiki
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- https://dxos.org/
  - https://docs.dxos.org/guide/platform/
- Echo is a tool in DXOS for building sites. Eventually-Consistent Hierarchical Object Database (ECHO)
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- People interested in Spatial Web
- https://spatialwebfoundation.org/
- Significant problems with it
- Jerry: issues with their obsession with Geolocation
- Foundational - HSML & HSTP (Hyperspace Transaction Protocol)
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2000/10/30/the-pitchman
http://www.gladwell.com/2000_10_30_a_pitchman.htm
[[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
- BlueSky doing some exciting things
- https://github.com/bluesky-social/feed-generator
- https://github.com/bluesky-social/social-app
- https://bsky-mirc.glitch.me/
- Deformaing things is key to good community. See.
- https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/about.html
Peter
- Flikr a good example of someone that got a good community.
Michael
- https://get.mem.ai/
- https://aboard.com/

[[2023-05-17]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Flancian]]
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- [[Sunil]] (sp?) on a project in the intersection of [[yoga]] and [[AI]]
- [[flancian]] very interested!
- #jm guidelines on how to run a civilization
  - the bible as the anti-handbook
  - [[yoga]] as a possible path forward
    - behavior and anti-behaviour
- [[Sunil]] is writing a book
  - [[Sunil]] ~ https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunil-malhotra/
  - [[Advainta Vedanta]] influenced
  - Possible links with the [[Marley]] project
- [[Yoga with x]]
  - Node is currently buggy, redirects :)
[[Bentley Davis]]
- Converting blog to [[massive wiki]]
- Picking up the thread of [[universal inboxes]]
  - #jm Jerry Michalski says:Unified Messaging https://bra.in/7p6ALP
  - Having one tool, one place, does not mean you are forced to unify everything/remove limits
- [[flancian]] discussing with [[bouncepaw]] how to enable repos/web sites to specify how they want to integrate into an [[agora]], [[massive wiki]], etc.
  - #bd ideally all of the above
  - #jm we don’t have a vocabulary for ‘second level of paste’
    - paste as copy
    - paste with reference/update
    - paste as transclusion
  - [[frink]] == [[frozen link]]
  - [[mook]] == [[multiuser book]]
    - maybe also [[neobook]]
  - do we need a better word for [[transclusion]]?
- [[letters we would like to send]]
  - [[ted nelson]]
  - [[leibniz]] corresponded with ~700 people in their lifetime
- migrating blog to a more flexible framework
[[flancian]] will try to have link.agor.ai ready next week for a small demo finally :)
[[flancian]] what’s up with [[marley]] / what are the next steps?
- [[jerry michalski]] agreeing on formats and pipelines (using calibre, pandoc, etc.)
- will try to run through the process once, end to end, to test the process
- after that we will start running the process for multiple books
- question: what happens when you go from the book to a wiki/community space around each nugget?
  - how do we measure value through a community?
  - [[peter kaminski]] could be into focusing on new organizational structures
  - how do we share what we know? how does the information come alive? how do we create summary pages?
    - [[flancian]]
      - manifestations of nuggets
      - attribution/derivation lines between nuggets
      - nuggets as prompts
      - nuggets as topics for discussion
    - research [[attribution networks]] [[attribution chains]]
    - [[topic maps]] with topics as prompts?
  - [[attribution server]] from [[2002]] in [[jerry’s brain]]
    - [[embracing piracy]]
  - In [[Jerry’s brain]]
    - [[yellow]] is an attractor
    - [[purple]] is an opinion
  - [[Rethinking Copyright]]
  - [[Rethinking Peer Review]]
  - [[Rethinking …]]
- on the word [[muggle]]
  - people who are unaware/lack magical powers because they were
  - pros:
    - memorable
    - parallel between (muggles and wizards) and (civilians and people who code)
  - cons:
    - maybe
  - maybe we should riff on harry potter / write a spin off
    - a la https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
- [[mycellial networks]]

[[2023-05-10]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Samuel Klein]]
What’s the common thread we want to pursue?
- A document, leading to maybe to a book?
- This ties into https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-sensedoing and [[Project Marley]]
- The community meets on Mondays at 10:30am PT over Zoom
- [[Peter Kaminski]] pitching a particular organizational structure for both [[Project Marley]] and maybe this [[Fellowship of the Link]] anchored writing project
  - Fractal organization
  - https://wiki.earthmoonstars.space/
  - #azs Is this related to [[metagov]]?
  - Yes, related to that and [[holacracy]]
Pitch follows
- Something that Peter wrote down for something he wants to start.
- Incorporates conversation with [[map of the future]] and [[lionsberg]] (sp?).
- Context:
  - https://mapofthefuture.org/
  - https://wiki.mapofthefuture.org/
  - https://lionsberg.wiki/
  - the above inspired by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
- The framing project
  - https://wiki.earthmoonstars.space/
  - It’s totally fine if things are generated by AI, as long as there is a person curating
- The actual pitch – going off people / project roles pages in https://wiki.earthmoonstars.space/project_roles
  - Now about the org structure
    - Contributors
      - Contribute :)
      - Participate in governance
    - Subscribers
      - Our audience – some of which may contribute resources
      - Could or could not participate in governance
    - Editors
      - Set contribution standards
      - Participate in governance
    - Stewards
      - Participate in governance
    - System Administrator
  - About the output
    - Stories is what we output
    - Stories also act as a form of in-game currency
      - 1h in an editorial meeting ~ 2 stories
  - Q&A and comments
    - love the framing of a wiki and associated narrative as MVP for coordination on a project
    - why six roles / might they be too many?
      - tradeoff between making it clear how people can contribute/engage, recognizing different types of work, and manageability
  - [[Jerry Michalski]]
    - Issue of overhead of platform choice/coordination
    - Examples of projects in this space
      - Distributed Accounting of Value Flows (Revenue Sharing for Collaboration)
      - Disco.coop
      - Social.coop
    - Desires
      - Feed the commons
      - Recognize value
  - [[Flancian]]
    - Social.coop experiences in itself (flat structure) and with Loomio
  - [[Metasj]]
    - What is the primary goal of the systems we mentioned?
      - Recognize value of contributions and distribute earnings/profits/outcomes
      - #pk see lots of projects which don’t have enough of a framework to let people contribute in different ways
      - #pk c.f. lionsberg – connecting donors and dollars with the right nonprofits. interface layer.
  - #azs what does state mean in the description given?
    - #pk the US state in this case because I’m sitting there and US non profits are regulated by the US state; other states would apply.
    - This is a fallback mechanism thought.
    - #jm [[escheat]]
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] like the fact that this is working towards diversity/inclusion; allowing people that wouldn’t usually have access to the system and get it
    - But wonder if this kind of system will always be open to people figuring out incentive/reward structures and exploiting them.
    - [[Gresham’s law]] ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham’s_law
  - [[Jerry Michalski]]
    - Would be nice for communities to be able to select templates/override values from other projects to lower the cost to setup.
  - [[Samuel Klein]] ([[Metasj]])
    - There’s day-to-day decisions vs larger strategic decisions
    - People often tie governance to assets
    - Enjoy the idea of a system where people can self-assign roles and report back on time/effort invested
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] you could have people vote on each other’s value contributed
https://bra.in/7qeDBy

[[2023-05-03]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[flancian]]
[[Peter Kaminski]] on [[complexity adventures]] this past weekend
- #pk a little bit like [[OGM]], fuzzy organization but maybe a bit less than OGM :)
- https://www.complexityadventures.com/
- came out of [[complexity science]] community. It used to be called [[complexity week]]
- 2x year a summit
  - [[wrap-up session]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTS6IokWQZM&list=PLcZI4kcFpRsjQoktPXJ1cbKlb1MdSlirw
- they host it in [[gather town]] – and it worked this weekend, quite well. People dropped by on discussions.
- session for an hour, break for an hour – repeat for 48h
- 1/3rd new people every summit; basecamps take place every month after each summit for people who agreed to work on the same project
- more structure (than OGM) means they have more of a shared language
- they run everything on [[keybase]] (instead of e.g. [[mattermost]]) – “every app grows until it can send email -> chat”
  - aside on [[jwz]] and his rants :)
  - mention of [[steve yegge]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]] parallel conversation on building a shared brain / collective sense. Convergent lines.
  - Mention of [[mycelial networks]] in the conference
  - [[network of the future]]
  - reusing infrastructure
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] on [[quorum1]]: https://wiki.quorum.one/blog/what-is-quorum1
- [[Flancian]] on federated work / moderation in the fediverse
- [[Flancian]] is there a platform / organization that connects organizations in this space like we are doing peer to peer in this group?
  - LinkedIn suggests connections, complements the person-to-person processes
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] on the difficulty of transferring knowledge between knowledge bases, or maybe impossibility (currently)
    - writing down stuff doesn’t make it knowledge, it needs to be decoded
  - But: [[Vincent Arena]], https://catalist.network/ is this :)
  - #pk shares the [[flotilla]] project with Vincent
  - #pk Vincent wants to build something user-friendly; but a directory of this sort might be hard to make user-friendly
  - #pk [[matchmakers]] might be needed to mediate between the directory and non technical/beginner users, like [[librarians]]
- #pk [[collaborative tech alliance]] ~ [[cta]] are also in this space
  - https://www.collaborative.tech/
- [[interop]] and multiple source support seem key for such an entity
  - [[flotilla]] wanted to tackle this
    - [[factr]] interop was a recurring topic
    - [[flotilla fridays]]
    - [[interop taskforce]]?
  - #pk [[POSE]] https://www.nsf.gov/pubs/2023/nsf23556/nsf23556.htm
- [[ida josefina]]
- #azs [[indieweb]] – organized around an ideological core
  - [[interop fund]]
  - checkout is currently “here’s a bunch of data, good luck” – this may change due to regulation
- #pk two things that maybe contradict each other a bit
  - skepticism about interop fund
    - the incentives might align wrong here
    - IETF in the early 90s, in particular the IMAP interop effort
    - what worked was each IMAP software developer working on their own interop
    - [[Hoffman]] was amazingly good at this
    - [[Flancian]] alternatives: services provided in the commons, etc.
  - going back to org structure
    - premise: little groups of people doing good work don’t have enough support in creating an org structure that people feel can contribute to meaningfully, have a say in governance, etc.
    - templates for coordinating collaboration; e.g. go to a catalog and pick organizational forms that are compatible
    - [[pattern languages]] for organizations
      - organization types per jurisdiction
    - organizations should be able to be e.g. three people coming together for a few weeks
    - [[map of the future]] is working on that
    - [[lionsberg]] as well: https://www.lionsberg.org/
    - #azs [[holosourcing]] as related? https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qo24nRIFCzIitNmsMWBN4P4EqOxo-AAe/view
out of context quotes
- “on a contact high from [[chatgpt]]”
Placeholder
Threads from last time we would like to pick up:
- [[high leverage opportunities]] we can spot
- [[generative commons]]
  - [[generative linking]] (inferring links)
  - [[general commons agreement]] https://bra.in/8qeNWy
- [[wishlist]] approach to worldbuilding
- [[Jerry Michalski]] let’s discuss: note sharing.
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] let’s discuss conventions? Added something in [[massive wiki]].
    - volunteered https://tftmap.massive.wiki/map/aram_zucker-scharff
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he’s been working on.
- [[Flancian]] would like to discuss [[Interwiki]] links and the [[common hub]] approach for search and entity resolution
#push [[fotl threads]]
- define:
  - [[wiki]] / root URL
  - /now
  - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
    - [[github]] by default?

[[2023-04-26]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- [[micro.blog]]
  - Aram: Popular among indieweb
    - Uses microformats
    - IndieAuth
  - Has ActivityPub
- Looking for newsletter tools. [[Micro.blog]] and [[Buttondown]] are on there.
[[Jerry Michalski]] - List of newsletter tools: https://app.thebrain.com/brain/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/fa9529e8-0f0a-95a0-e0b5-c6007523d77a
Peter: I know WordPress has a tool
Jerry: Tired of dealing with WordPress, had to deal with problems and hacking, and code issues with collaborators.
Aram: I find it has moved towards larger scale users.
Jerry: Has WordPress become sort of like running an Outlook server where it really requires a lot of work to maintain? Is becoming an enterprise service inevitable for successful services?
- Peter: yeah it is a scale thing.
- Aram: The fate of open projects in capitalism that have no intent other than “better”.
The death of internet stuff
- Yahoo killing things
  - https://gizmodo.com/how-yahoo-killed-flickr-and-lost-the-internet-5910223
- Also the death of AIM - https://mashable.com/archive/aim-history
- https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/1244876?shelf=corporate-drama
Aram: Two good outputs - the knowledge management list + the interwiki
Aram: Had to leave early

[[2023-04-12]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Mathew Lowry]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Eduardo Ivanec]]
[[Aram]]
- using multiple inboxes
- notes are supposed to be the connective tissue
- [[Mathew]] different clients using different products, even in the same product different scopes (e.g. different teams)
How to manage attention, multiple inboxes calling for our attention vs
- Matrix is a good platform to build on to allow you to do work.
- [[Jerry]] : Tried Matrix and found it very difficult to find people.
- [[Aram]] individually adressable messages (one link per message) are important
[[Mathew]]
- Massivewiki is coming along quite nicely
- Map has [[eleven dimensions]]
- https://tftmap.massive.wiki/map/aram_zucker-scharff is the gold standard in survey responses :)
  - [[Aram]] openness seemed hard to interpret
  - [[Flancian]] maybe interoperability could be clustered with [[data sovereignty]] more closely than with [[openness]] to leave that for open source/free software
- [[Jerry]] how do we make this more accessible to non technical users?
  - Maybe interactive experience that lets people go from preferences to recommended tools?
  - How to represent which thinking tools can work well together?
    - [[Mathew]] user profiles are a good place to expose stories about how we use/combine different tools
- [[Peter Kaminski]] asked Chat-GPT: consider the following, and add more frameworks.

Actor-Network Theory
Analytic Frameworks
Appreciative Inquiry
Asking Better Questions
Brittle Anxious Nonlinear Incomprehensible
Bayes’ Theorem
Big Hairy Audacious Goals
Blind Variation And Selective Retention
Blitzscaling
Big Unsolved Meaningful Problems
Business Model Canvas
CODE: Capture, Organize, Distill, Express
Common Sense Framework
Crash Theory
Creating the Future
Cynefin
Eisenhower Matrix
Envisioning Positive Futures
Four Levels of Conversation
Grounded Theory Methodology
Hanlon’s Razor
Jobs To Be Done
Keeprah Holistic Model
Ladder of Abstraction
Lean Startup
MetaImpact Framework
Multi-Level Perspective
Occam’s Razor
Octalysis
Observations Feelings Needs Requests
Pace Layering
Positive Emotions, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning and Achievement
Polarity Mnagement
Porter Five Forces Analysis
The Feynman Technique

ChatGPT:
Here are more frameworks to consider:

Balanced Scorecard
Blue Ocean Strategy
Bounded Rationality
Capability Maturity Model Integration (CMMI)
Co-Creation Model
Complex Adaptive Systems
Conjoint Analysis
Creative Problem Solving
Critical Path Analysis
Cross-Impact Matrix
Decision Tree Analysis
Design Thinking
Disruptive Innovation
Double Diamond Framework
Dynamic Capabilities Framework
First Principles Thinking
Focused Conversation Method
Force Field Analysis
Gartner Hype Cycle
Growth-Share Matrix (BCG Matrix)
Heuristic Evaluation
Human-Centered Design
Impact Effort Matrix
Innovation Ambition Matrix
Innovation Adoption Lifecycle
Integral Theory
Kano Model
Kurt Lewin’s Change Model
Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
McKinsey 7S Model
Minimum Viable Product (MVP)
Morphological Analysis
Narrative Inquiry
OODA Loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act)
Outcome-Driven Innovation
PEST Analysis (Political, Economic, Social, Technological)
RACI Matrix (Responsible, Accountable, Consulted, Informed)
Real Options Analysis
Root Cause Analysis
Scenario Planning
Six Sigma
Socratic Method
Spiral Dynamics
Stakeholder Analysis
STAR Method (Situation, Task, Action, Result)
Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats (SWOT) Analysis
Structured Problem Solving
System Dynamics Modeling
Theory of Constraints
TOWS Matrix (Threats, Opportunities, Weaknesses, Strengths)
TRIZ (Theory of Inventive Problem Solving)
Value Chain Analysis
Value Stream Mapping
Viable Systems Model
Wardley Mapping
Work Breakdown Structure
World Café Method
Zero-Based Budgeting

[[Peter Kaminski]] https://hotair.peterkaminski.wiki/
- ~40 responses from ChatGPT, plus handwritten preamble
- example [[pattern language]] generated with ChatGPT
[[Jerry Michalski]] has been thinking of ‘crazier ideas’ as of late due to the [[GPT effect]]
- Should we start a [[bootcamp]] related to [[prompt engineering]]?
- [[Matthew]] has been reading lots of medium posts about this, varying quality
- [[Matthew]] on the potential for pre-processors as a service
- [[Flancian]] on this opening up thinking space
- [[Aram]] maybe we’re being too optimistic here, in particular if we see how people are actually using this – often not to think?
[[autogpt]] [[babyagi]] https://mobile.twitter.com/TheTuringPost/status/1645712971207778304
- https://mobile.twitter.com/DrJimFan/status/1646186278743072770
Agora has a plugin for Matrix that lets you push stuff to the Agora - https://anagora.org/@anagora@matrix.org
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- Twitter exit paths
  - [[mastodon]]
    - [[flancian]] maybe [[lemmy]]?
  - [[Listmonk]] (https://listmonk.app/)
  - [[Aram]] https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1646178031524884484
- “there’s a new tool that makes things faster” -> “I can make 200 of these instead of 1”
  - [[Aram]] [[plotto]]
    - [[plot seeds]]
    - [[ur plots]]
- https://shop.pimoroni.com/
Front Office for public notes and Back Office for private notes.

[[2023-04-05]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Flancian]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
Book!
- [[neobook]]?
- Chapters being combined into several books.
- Repurposed Monday sense-doing calls at 10:30-12 Pacific
[[Jerry Michalski]] conversation with (sp?) [[Cal Shannon]], from [[www artist consortium]]
- Into Stable Diffusion as of late, [[generative salon]]
- “Can we connect generative AI to your brain?”
- But Jerry uses links more than nodes
- Flancian: this could be a good opportunity for an Agora-like approach were other people contribute nodes in the same graph, thus putting together a social corpus.
- Experiment: take one or few [[braincasts]] (tours of sections of the brain)
- Lack of [[Brain API]] hinders some of these efforts
  - [[Brainy McBrainface]] previously
“One of the most cyborg people I know”
- “The future world has a lot to do with becoming a good cyborg”
- Mastering [[ChatGPT]] seems to be in this realm.
- Presentation: [[my life as a cyborg]] -> [[confessions of a cyborg]]
  - [[cyborgconfessions.com]]
Working with Paul Roney (sp?) on [[Hypertalk]] the podcast
- A collection of different podcasts that can be hosted by different people, some of which are four episodes long.
- [[Flancian]] on the [[Flancia pattern language]] as a book/podcast generator ;)
[[Chris Aldrich]]
- Thinking of [[playlists]] of things
- Magic wand: here is a website on a bunch of interesting stuff on N topics, crawl this site and spin off a book version of it
- ‘site to ebook’ or ‘corpus to ebook’
- 60k posts in Chris’s site
[[Pattern languages]]
- met with daniel from [[liberating structures pattern language]]
- and X from [[pattern language for unmanagement]]
- [[ward cunningham]] in a recent call
- Y wrote a book about Alexander
- one of the angles discussed: how do we make pattern languages more accessible, better known, useful
  - e.g. 1, 2, 4 from liberating structures.
  - how can we distill data into patterns? going to Chris’s idea
  - #CA “go into my notes, find notes that are linked together, and generate something out of that”
  - #Flancian on producing readable/useful [[embeddings]]
    - on the side quest of [[visualizing the agora]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]] on Substack pubs and the lack of linking/context tools
- Can we build a toolkit to [[make sense]] of this kind of corpora as a whole?
- [[Devonthink]] suggests connections between documents
- [[Chris Aldrich]] we are missing the ratchet for: when do you take the pieces that we know and have context for and take selective action?
  - If you have already seen something, maybe you don’t need to see it again.
  - Maybe if I know something, I want to see more of X.
  - I want something along the lines of “[[Life’s Ratchet]]: How Molecular Machines Extract Order from Chaos” by Peter M Hoffmann but for my media consumption…
  - #Flancian two directions
    - User agents as the long term game
    - …
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] who else’s patterns does this look like?
    - Building bridges.
    - Pidgin languages.
    - #Flancian translating between mental models.
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] There’s the idea of [[context collapse]]… how do we create a context ratchet which can find what we’re missing and fill it in to allow us to move along? Teachers are good at doing this, but automating it is anything but easy.
    - allowing people to participate both [[meaninfully]] and in a [[kind]] fashion
    - use a [[context ratchet]] to find a middle ground, or maybe new words/concepts that serve to build bridges?
    - [[myth america]] (book) and the history of [[american exceptionalism]]
      - [[woke]] as the word that could be seen as counter-american-exceptionalism
      - sidebar: the history of [[woke]]
    - #JM human history is a fight over the joystick for control of societies over time
    - #CA [[American Exceptionalism]] in [[Henry Adams]]: https://hypothes.is/a/JPNudMFjEe2_4vt2o5Xbwg
#CA [[César Hidalgo]] and [[How Information Grows]]
- #Flancian on the limits of hierarchical corporations.
- [[Dual power]] as an alternative.
- [[Thomas Piketty]] has something about this in his work.
Threads from last time we would like to pick up:
- [[high leverage opportunities]] we can spot
- [[generative commons]]
  - [[generative linking]] (inferring links)
  - [[general commons agreement]] https://bra.in/8qeNWy
- [[wishlist]] approach to worldbuilding
- [[Jerry Michalski]] let’s discuss: note sharing.
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] let’s discuss conventions? Added something in [[massive wiki]].
    - volunteered https://tftmap.massive.wiki/map/aram_zucker-scharff
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he’s been working on.
- [[Flancian]] would like to discuss [[Interwiki]] links and the [[common hub]] approach for search and entity resolution
#push [[fotl threads]]
- define:
  - [[wiki]] / root URL
  - /now
  - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
    - [[github]] by default?

[[2023-03-29]]

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
Attending: [[jerry michalski]] [[peter kaminski]] [[aram zucker-scharff]] [[flancian]]
[[Hanlon’s Razor]]
[[Check ins]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - Idea by [[Peter Kaminski]]
    - Let’s write a book together (!)
      - see proposal at: https://topics.openglobalmind.com/
      - looks like we’ll transition from [[Monday Morning SenseDoing Calls]] into this project, see the SenseDoing channel on CSC Mattermost.
      - https://wiki.openglobalmind.com/ogm_topics_ops/ogm_topics_ops
  - [[WWW Artists Consortium]] (sp?)
    - Meetings back in the day
    - Contact there (Kyle) now created [[AI Salon]], https://www.meetup.com/the-ai-salon/, involved with [[Stable Difussion]] for a while
    - [[ChatGPT]] + [[Jerry’s Brain]] = ?
    - [[maparent]] has the latest Jerry’s Brain dump
    - [[MemeBrane]] is software that FJB (Pete, Marc-Antoine) wrote that navigates TheBrain
  - [[Tools for Thinking Podcast]] -> [[Hypertalk]] (new name)
    - Want to leave behind book artifacts in a format that is useful for the podcast
    - If you present a plan for N episodes, it can be folded into the podcast
    - Toolkit for making podcasts in this particular style.
    - Podcast-zine
    - #pk on creating supportive spaces, e.g. Madonna and the drag queen controversy
[[Peter Kaminski]]
- Been doing talking about ChatGPT/LLMs in the context of different cultures, focusing on e.g. cultural biases and some other weaknesses
- #jm shoutout to Peter for showing lots of consideration and patience in some of these discussions :)
- [[ChatGLM]] was trained on 50/50 chinese/english
- On “why is ChatGPT stuck in white-male-world”
  - Philosophy as a condensed word that already has the same bias in practice
  - Asking LLMs culture-agnostic questions
- #jm On Christopher Alexander and Pattern Language; asked ChatGPT about patterns and the answer was very insightful.
  - AHA moments with technology
  - [[Flancian]] parallels with early internet/search engines experiences
  - #jm MacDraw demo with lasso tool
  - #jm app switcher
  - #pk interactivity aspect that is crucial with ChatGPT
  - #pk on knowing about bikes vs riding a bike
- On asking good questions
  - On sharing prompts and results
- #pk using ChatGPT to write code, in particular against its own API
  - [[Sylph]] - https://github.com/peterkaminski/sylph
  - [[Chap]]- https://github.com/jepler/chap
- #flancian [[langchain]] as LLM-agnostic platform to build on
- [[metasj]] everyone should read https://blog.darklang.com/gpt/
- #jm feeling of acceleration
- on the [[open letter]]
  - https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/28/1100-notable-signatories-just-signed-an-open-letter-asking-all-ai-labs-to-immediately-pause-for-at-least-6-months/
  - #push [[ai open letter]]
    - #go https://futureoflife.org/open-letter/pause-giant-ai-experiments/
    - [[lhl]] https://fediverse.randomfoo.net/notice/AU67WTBndEXlukXoo4
  - #pk on the [[foresight institute]] experience on [[nanotech]] risks
    - [[metasj]] definitely appreciate the skill in getting people around the table; this feels different though
      - on interactions between new technologies and existing equilibria
      - we probably want to explore many different possible new equilibria and explore several of them in parallel
      - we should imagine a world where everybody owns their own hardware and models
      - on parallels between controlling AI risk and controlling access to weapons/dangerous substances
    - #jm on efforts to replicate ChatGPT, e.g. Alpaca
      - [[llama]] is the base model here
      - is finetuning adding knowledge or, like [[maparent]] said, more akin to lobotomization?
      - #sj these centrally trained models are good universal models that can be finetuned
      - #sj draft paper on building a captioning tool
    - #jm [[the unreasonable effectiveness of data]]
    - #pk The Dark Side of LLMs | Better Programming - about [[indirect prompt injection]]
    - #jm would you ban chatgpt writing hard science fiction?
    - #azs most of the good objections to chatgpt are actually objections to capitalism
      - :)
      - scraping for one purpose, then using the corpus for another – is already an issue in the publishing industry
      - how to provide people tools to administer how their output is used to train models, etc.?
      - [[Jack Saint]] video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBV0bhlLUgA
      - [[Can Capitalism Be Tipped Over]]
        
        #jm B sides without lyrics in the early reggae scene (instrumental to enable mashups/remixing)
    - [[Flancian]] on which tools/protocols we could produce to be ready for the moment in which people are disrupted; how to empower people
      - #jm [[Generative Commons Agreement]] as a previous attempt (2021)
      - Discussed in [[OGM]] previously
      - Like [[Chatham House Rules]] but about contributions to the commons
      - #azs interested
        
        the other piece here is mechanical parsability
      - #jm GenerativeCommons.org
      - #azs https://communityrule.info/
    - #pk on fan art / fan comics in Japan
      - https://www.quora.com/How-is-it-legal-for-Japanese-people-to-make-fan-comics-of-copyrighted-material-for-profit
      - https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SerialNumbersFiledOff
    - [[alter ego]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2UgmPzIITI
[[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
[[Flancian]]
- Meta/keeping track of projects
- ChatGPT and others
- cost of fine-tuning going down
  - [[Alpaca]] for [[LLaMA]]
  - [[LoRA]]
- Social.coop
- Podcast idea

2023-03-08

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]…
https://wiki.rel8.dev/shared_notes_across_six_tools – one of the big goals for 2023.
Initial list of participants (invited):
- Jerry Michalski
- Flancian
- Pete Kaminski
- Bentley Davis
  - Doesn’t currently follow a note taking system
- Maggie Appleton
- Chris Aldrich
- Mathew Lowry
- Aram Zucker-Scharff
  - Would be interested in exploring this from a common processes point of view, beyond the particular tool used
[[Markdown on git]] as a simple common format/medium
Low bar: everybody links to https://wiki.rel8.dev/shared_notes_across_six_tools and the way back
[[flancian]] Agora demo + [[go/agora chapter]]
- :)
- [[pull]] is too similar to ‘pull request’ so it was a bit confusing at first
- #ca the distinction with block references w.r.t. pull/push was the most useful framing heard so far
[[Chris Aldrich]] ideal note taking flow:
- markdown based
- private by default, but allows for easy publishing?
  - currently using [[nested vaults]] with [[obsidian]]
- hypothesis integration
  - some frustration with the hypothes.is API
- syndicates to social media with a permalink
- does not require many tools, trying to cut down on the number of moving pieces always
[[Instagram]]
- cut off access to [[Chris Aldrich]] for the nth time, which is one time too many
[[Web annotation standard]]]
[[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
- would like to publish his notebook
- would like a static-pages-based solution, no server component
- https://github.com/AramZS/notebook/blob/main/README.md is a recap of conventions we’ve discussed so far
- [[markdown it]] https://fightwithtools.dev/posts/projects/devblog/retro-markdown-it/
on [[go links]]
- related: [[alfred app]] [[TextExpander]]
Let’s all link our repositories in https://wiki.rel8.dev/shared_notes_across_six_tools / [[shared notes across six tools]]

2023-03-01

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] …
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- [[My life as a cyborg]] (mentioned on Free Jerry’s Brain on Monday)
- April posted about it on LinkedIn
- How do the following mix together?
  - Jerry’s Brain
  - ChatGPT
  - Massive Wikis
  - Agoras
- Hip Hop culture and sampling
  - Previously it was clamped down upon by the recording industry
  - But Hip Hop railed against it and came out on top
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] it might be that hip hop started sampling culture (was there much sampling before that?)
  - Maybe what happened: there was a clamp down and then people started paying for samples, the economic aspect followed
  - [[How sampling transformed music]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3TF-hI7zKc
  - Parallels to how now you can post copyrighted videos/music to Youtube, and monetization “just flows” to the copyright holder
- Q: Why don’t we have a network-based (federated, distributed, etc.) solution for flowing profits/dividends generally?
  - A: mostly probably because copyright holders don’t want this, they want a more centralized approach (e.g. meet with Youtube).
- On [[image generators]] and the associated problem
  - #pk people realized that there was an “asset” up for grabs that wasn’t recognized as such: [[style]].
  - Artists seem more concerned about style copying than about copying individual artwork.
- [[Jerry Michalski]] Style is what an experienced/fully developed artist develops in a way that is recognizable
  - c.f. [[essence]], which these engines seem to be able to latch on
- [[Copyright Revolution]]
  - #jm [[Attribution]] is extremely important
    - Together with a distributed system for tipping/paying it forward to everybody involved in derivative works
  - [[Embracing Piracy]]
  - #pk agree on almost all except for the idea of paying someone because they were the “root node”
  - #fl [[Revolution Coin]] would give people this flexibility :)
  - #pk but human creativity is already a [[commons]] and it should be recognized as such
  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_Fairey
  - #ca on attribution as key, and how we:
    - Don’t attribute enough (you don’t see marketing people or theater owners in movie credits)
    - Could we making more explicit ancillary actors in general
    - China example: after decades of work they’re still at 60-70% of where they could be w.r.t. setting up actual distribution networks
  - #jk [[Distributed Accounting of Value Flows]] (Revenue Sharing for Collaboration) https://bra.in/7qeDBy
    - in this space:
      - [[open collective]]
      - [[disco coop]]
    - if this worked, you could drop your ‘reward’ for a movie in a shared pool and let the right distribution system do the work
- [[sam klein]] “Any good Fellowship should include generative members”
  - How do we make good on the opportunity to have a more robustly fleshed out world of links, value flows, etc.?
  - [[automated communism]]
  - #ca we’ve been using [[fame]]; what is its value? does fame have value beyond a marketplace that puts value on fame?
    - [[spielberg]] can make any movie he wants because of fame; he is trading that for something else?
  - #pk [[fame]] as a proxy for respect from people
    - not fungible, might not necessarily feed you
    - #ca [[david graeber]] and [[the dawn of everything]]
      - “we stole the idea of freedom from them”
      - [[pirate enlightenment]]
    - #jm [[under the black flag]] is also very good
    - #jm on [[capitalism]]:
      - Like Cuckoos, Capitalism Had to Push All Other Ways of Living Out of the Nest https://bra.in/5jk43Z
      - -> [[ontoshift]] is needed
    - #ca [[capitalism]] has competitive advantages, in particular paired with the [[industrial revolution]]
  - #sk [[pull revolution]] instead of [[push revolution]]
    - we should be empowering people to start new variations of society
  - #jm what are our next two [[stacks]]? https://bra.in/5qnYm9
- What do we need to influence this space going forward?
  - Should we start with a [[wishlist]]?
  - Which: devices, people, organizations would we need the support of to get such a project off the ground? Which “things” would
  - Something there made me think of Generous Thinking by Kathleen Fitzpatrick

(chat dump follows)

generative commons: lovely!
~SJ says:what do we need the backing for?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine
~SJ says:we need the wishlist )
~SJ says:“You have been a bad supplicant. I have been a good Oracle 😇”
~SJ says:forkability
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:back to “style” as an asset or not, Peter Mohrbacher, an artist, has an interesting take in this article:

https://medium.com/@woodenfox/ai-artwork-will-change-everything-top-artist-for-magic-the-gathering-shares-thoughts-58e25d0768d7

Scroll down to the heading, ‘On the Topic of Artists “Steeling” Art Styles Using AI’
21:11
~SJ
~SJ says:
https://www.unum.cloud/blog/2023-02-20-efficient-multimodality
is a nice approach
~SJ says:right
~SJ says:mapping them to mechanism is important
~SJ says:let’s work on it (incl. as a matchmaking challenge)

2023-02-23

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] …
(on OGM)
- born in an [[email list]] ([[Google Group]])
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] on dynamics in mailing lists
  - noisy vs quiet people
    - this problem seems to be less severe in chat? in particular if you can create a new room next door – people will find their spaces
    - “bloviating”
    - people not being introduced to [[netiquette]]
    - [[slack]] designed around many of the limitations of email (you can rename channels but not (easily) email threads, etc.)
  - email is the lingua franca / mcd tool (pro)
  - email is pretty poor as a conversational medium (con)
- channels in CSC [[mattermost]] came later
- [[mini list]]
- [[chat gpt]] discussion
email vs matrix vs activitypub vs …
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] big generational gap with email, almost nobody millenial or younger wants to use email
- There’s also the parallel move from IRC to Slack or Discord :(
  - Note that the ToS for Slack doesn’t allow to extract messages from the platform (!).
- There’s also the parallel move from e.g. [[phpbb]] to [[reddit]]/[[stack exchange]]; unclear if some conversations that used to happen in forums are even happening somewhere anymore?
- Aram: where has [[asynchronous play]] gone?
- [[Jerry Michalski]]: default settings from products (that e.g. either send notifications to email or not) count a lot here.
- [[Jerry Michalski]] how to set up customized ‘sweeps’ (like personal workflows) and share them.
- [[Aram]] Indieweb has a cross posting version of this that pulls in Discord, Matrix and IRC.
[[Check ins]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - Which kind of structure do we need to find to be a steward of a shared memory for humans?
  - Interested on: note sharing.
    - Let’s schedule a next week conversation about this?
  - Using [[Youtube Shorts]] more, liking the [[60 seconds]] constraint
    - [[Indra’s net]]
  - Working with Paul Roney (sp?) on a podcast on the history of computing
    - Early visionaries like Bush
    - Plus policy/sense making at societal level, tying in to pandemic response
    - How to contribute this back to the big fungus
- [[Flancian]]
  - Day job occurrences
  - [[agora 2023]], [[agora 2025]]
  - [[beyond markdown on git]]
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
  - Work related: trying to push some blog posts through PR
    - At just the right level to be under extra scrutiny
    - Writing precisely about hotspots
  - Continuing to work on the context center (sp?) / timelines.
    - Looking forward to release this code next month, for now it’s on a branch.
    - https://fightwithtools.dev/projects/context-timelines/
    - https://github.com/AramZS/context-center/tree/timeline
    - https://github.com/AramZS/contexter
    - Inspired by the work of [[molly white]], https://www.mollywhite.net/timelines/wikimedia/, [[web3 is going great]]
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[LATCH]]: Location, Alphabets, Time, Categories, Hierarchies
    - Timelines left-to-right don’t work that well on the web; Molly’s approach is top-to-bottom/feed like and works great
    - [[Circa]] https://www.niemanlab.org/2015/06/one-thing-we-can-learn-from-circa-a-broader-way-to-think-about-structured-news/
    - [[Circa]] https://www.theverge.com/2015/6/24/8842009/why-circa-failed
    - [[ESC]] - https://www.esc.fyi/ - at [[decent social]] https://decentsocial.net/
      - https://cryptpad.fr/sheet/#/3/sheet/edit/080b09b30bc627f2c8d884b606ec2922/
- [[Mathew Lowry]] not used so much to [[check ins]] in Europe :)
  - Thanks Aram for joining the [[massive wiki]] effort!
  - Focusing on ramping up consulting, would love to get a gig related to knowledge organization
  - https://mathewlowry.medium.com/a-minimum-viable-ecosystem-for-collective-intelligence-7738848ce9c4
  - [[Minimum Viable Ecosystem]] of services/platforms like:
    - [[Massive Wiki]]
    - [[Myhub]]
    - [[Agora]]
    - [[Factr]]
    - [[Catalyst]]
- [[SJ]] [[Art project]]: I’m gathering “Dreams for the future of knowledge” written onto 5x8cm cards
  - Event in New York
- Example use of Aliases: https://capture.dropbox.com/soyO4GMywL7pgaiq
Flancian: would like to discuss [[cross posting]] / [[siphoning]] further some other meeting?

2023-02-15

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
Threads from last time we would like to pick up:
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he’s been working on.
- [[Flancian]] would like to discuss [[Interwiki]] links and the [[common hub]] approach for search and entity resolution
#push [[fotl threads]]
- define:
  - [[wiki]] / root URL
  - /now
  - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
    - [[github]] by default?
Check ins
- [[invasion of the body snatchers]]
[[calendar]] URL
- [[jerry michalski]] https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
- [[bentley davis]] surprised at the sheet but also understandable
  - would like to maybe code a viewer for calendars/slot finder
- [[flancian]] have been using [[nextcloud]] calendar for social.coop
how to share notes right here, right now
- [[jerry michalski]] who has opinions on how this should look?
  - MVP: [[markdown]] files on git, plus maybe some mechanism to handle conflicts or at least handle contention
  - Some concerns with Obsidian vaults, and the fact that settings seem to be per-vault
  - MVP doesn’t currently include sharing all the links in [[the brain]].
    - Would be nice to be able to infer [[massive wiki]] or [[agora]] URL from Obsidian directly.
    - #push [[the brain]]
      - [[vulcan]] is new [[brain]] interface: https://forums.thebrain.com/post/12555295
- [[flancian]]
  - +1 on markdown on git
    - but it could also be “just a website” that we agree to crawl for notes
      - minimum for that would be: a base URL and a way to inform of the URL scheme that the website is using to serve notes
  - default for me is individual gardens on the one hand and “stoas” or “shared gardens” or just “wikis” as distinct
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - how do you provide context in dense digital gardens/wikis? Without overwhelming users.
  - How to communicate spatial encoding (e.g. what Jerry does in his Brain), and other conventions.
- [[Jerry Michalski]] automatic footer surfacing “sister locations”, “peers” – and also how to collaborate in a particular context
- [[Chris Aldrich]] context graph in the Agora is nice, but:
  - could use more levels (totally)
  - it changes every time, which makes it disconcerting (same in Obsdidian)
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] mostly uses the graph to find things that should be linked but aren’t
  - [[Jerry]] the brain does time-based and alphabetical sorting of nodes for you
[[Flancian]] where are your notes? ;)
- [[rel8]] have it already
- [[Jerry]] git repos incoming
  - [[brain]] dump
    - maybe later? it’s huge
  - [[obsidian]]
    - [[sync]] works nicely
    - [[git]] is preferred
      - [[obsidian git]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] needs to separate public and private notes
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] is doing the same
  - [[markdown on git]]
  - experimenting with this in https://github.com/AramZS/dnd-campaign-site-defectors/blob/main/.husky/pre-commit
  - likes folders
  - trying [[deepdwn]] https://www.deepdwn.com/ for markdown editing and it’s built for folders explicitly
  - https://www.dendron.so/
- [[Bentley Davis]]
  - Mostly uses his physical brain (!)
  - but has some things on Markdown, could work as a pilot.
  - Q: what about including arbitrary html?
- [[Jerry Michalski]] blog / wiki convergence
  - #push [[rel8]]
    - [[rel8 llc]]
    - #push [[multiplayer sensemaking]]
      - https://wiki.rel8.dev/what_multiplayer_sensemaking_needs_now
      - what about a call with Dan?

2023-02-08

a [[meeting]].
- #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
- Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]].
Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] (Late)
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
Threads from last time we would like to pick up, or new threads:
- [[Jerry Michalski]] would like to share notes with each other.
  - What does this mean? The lowest common denominator of Markdown on git seems fine to start with.
- #push [[nostr]]
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] started playing with [[nostr]].
    - Pete’s pubkey: npub1peterka3vphw8z8ls7hpl9c9lxh8ww4la36pf97sycdvtantzu8s97x3za
    - Aram’s pubkey: 8b9e3e37fb86f7282de4fb526505e2d5748f2cd09e22fbda18f1daa65028e916
    - Read about [[nostr]] vs [[SSB]].
      - Nostr gives everybody permission to speak, but nobody will necessarily listen to you.
    - Still really like it.
    - Warning disclaimer: it’s not safe yet.
    - At its heart, it’s a way to pass messages between each other through relays.
    - Could we do [[massive wiki]] through [[nostr]]?
      - Massive Wiki is markdown / raw files, but it’s also about versioning.
      - It turns out versioning is tricky :)
      - [[git]] solves this locally. People have also implemented many semantic conventions on top of filesystems.
    - Back to Jerry’s question: there is a big conceptual leap to ‘versions of a file are the same file’ from ‘versions of the same file are different files’.
    - [[Jerry]] this can be solved with the right UI/metaphors. For example [[fedwiki]] does this in a way that doesn’t work for him.
    - [[Flancian]] what does [[nostr]] get us over markdown on git and such?
      - [[Peter]] ‘follow a person’, [[pki]] infra that is hacky but works.
      - But we need to decide on a versioning strategy.
      - Obvious choices:
        
        git
        
        CRDT or CRDT-ish approaches
        
        [[Pijul]]
      - On “the versioning problem”
        
        The one occassion in which we definitely need to solve the versioning problem is when people are collaborating actively on the same file.
        
        Three aspects?
        
        Storage versioning
        
        UI management of versions/how you surface versions and link to versioned resources
        
        Multiple commit phases in associated workflows.
      - push puts what is next on a line (and what is under it in a list?) to be duplicated on that context
      - [[Bentley]] on [[Mathew]]'s post and git, and shortcomings/rough edges in the git experience.
        
        Staging is not needed by most people.
        
        Always pulling latest would be nice.
      - [[Aram]] Nostr has some significant advantages over SSB I think, which is that it is significantly more decentralized and doesn’t run into some of the blockchain adjacent stuff that causes ssb problems.
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] on [[Rich Burton]]'s project, https://dxos.org/
  - [[Aram]] [[IPFS]] seems very strong in this space. Same for [[webtorrent]].
    - [[nostr]] is cool conceptually, but it’s unclear how it would work for something that is not a messaging process.
    - It’s intended to be “slow”: You don’t need an always on connection to the internet.
  - [[Peter]] on [[syncthing]]
    - Tried it as an alternative to git
    - Syncs really fast actually
    - It let lots of editors feel ‘real time’
  - [[Jerry]] on [[vaults]], [[repos]], [[namespaces]]
  - [[Peter]] on messages vs documents
  - [[Jerry]] on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescript_(programming_language) as an example of a protocol designed supporting the “wrong” abstractions at a time in which the document-based web was taking off
- What’s the next step?
  - [[Peter]] let’s continue on the [[markdown on git]] path
  - [[Aram]] it seems that what’s needed is a predictable 1. path on a site for discovery of content and 2. format.
  - On predictable ways to resolve entities cross-site.
  - [[Peter]] add “.md” to get raw markdown from a massive wiki, e.g., https://massive.wiki/massive_wiki_conceptual_diagram.md
  - Could use [[timegates - https://context.center/topics/memento/

2023-02-01

Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Bill Anderson]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
Checkins / intros
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] lead privacy engineer for the [[washington post]], do lots of things with statically generated websites. Worked in academia on archiving as well.
- [[Bentley Davis]] software developer for 30y+, here helping out Jerry with his brain. Working on decision making and debate software. [[Open Global Mind]] is working on a [[sense doing]] making session.
  - SenseDoing chat: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-sensedoing
- [[Cal Waytena]] Student (sculpture and something else). Doing an independent master on [[futurology]].
- [[Bill Anderson]] Retired. Studied chemistry, worked as computer programmer in Xerox and Cornell. Did user centric design development (PARC). Worked on co-data (sp?) in the Balkan countries. Have known Jerry for a long time. Interested in [[Massive Wiki]] and how to integrate information in general. Strong opinions but happy to see them challenged! Trying to unlearn some things.
- [[Chris Aldrich]] ([[Peter Sellers]] reference: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch) recovering biomedical and electrical engineer who plays around in the sensemaking and thinking space. Independent researcher; in Indieweb. Not a lot he’s not interested in :)
- [[Flancian]] (Eduardo) - integrating information across walled gardens; [[Agora]], as much as we can with simple tools; writes fiction.
- [[Mathew Lowry]] Based in Brussels, into online communities and knowledge management. Interested in decentralized collective intelligence.
- [[Peter Kaminski]] help people work together with IT tools and human process. Entrepreneur and independent consultant. [[Massive Wiki]] is one of his main projects, which has a lot of similarities with [[Agora]] (compatible approaches!). Working on a [[Massive Wiki]] for the [[tools for thought space]].
Bring in any #pushed threads from above?
[[Flancian]] Our plans for the year.
- Common projects.
- Maybe let’s think about a few things we would like to do together this year, add them to the agenda or to some note in your digital garden and let’s discuss next time?
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he’s been working on.
  - This takes a line in e.g. a Markdown file with a link; this retrieves that link and archives a simple text version locally. Attempts to archive on archive.org. Generates a [[social card]] that is currently usually generated using a third party API.
  - https://fed.brid.gy/
  - Could be a good complement to both [[massive wiki]] and [[agora]] as they’re both strongly markdown based.
  - #pk certainly interested :)
  - #ml too, for myhub.ai, which is all about collecting and sharing cards
  - [[flancian]] +1
  - #pk it’d be nice to have a link that is at least “bimodal” – the target could be local or archive.org
  - Example: https://context.center/topics/indie-search/
  - #pk [[factr]] seems related - https://factr.com/
- [[Flancian]] would like to discuss [[Interwiki]] links and the [[common hub]] approach
  - #pk [[free jerry’s brain]] conversation yesterday
    - [[marc-antoine parent]] has [[hyperknowledge]] and thinks we need to add a few things to have true interop between tools
      - [[concept broker]]
      - [[nesting]], which means that you need a recursive scheme
        
        [[markdown]] is bad at this
        
        [[maparent]] likes off-band, like [[atjson]]
  - on [[sharing hub]] approach
    - #ca [[sister sites]] - http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/SisterSites
      - possible approach: search service / entity resolution extension that lets you search in a number of ‘resolution roots’
      - http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/SisterSite
      - https://oddmuse.org/wiki/Sister_Pages
        
        Example Swift Extension search as Firefox extension: https://github.com/CanisLupus/swift-selection-search
      - [[flancian]] [[agora ext]] tries to do this
      - [[aram zucker-scharff]] on tools for search of static sites possibly providing search easily for many different sources of truth
        
        http://elasticlunr.com/
        
        https://pagefind.app/
        
        https://lunrjs.com/
      - [[bill anderson]] massive wiki uses [[lunr]]
- Deep Linking - https://linkingmanifesto.org/
  -
[[Tools for Thinking Map Project]] phase 1 presentation (Pete, Mathew, Bill)
- https://tftmap.massive.wiki/
- Contribute right now by forking and sending a PR
[[jitsi chat]]

Flancian (paramita) says:
I don’t have audio it seems

Flancian (paramita) says:
one mint

Flancian (paramita) says:
*minute

Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://context.center/topics/indie-search/

BentleyDavis.com says:
I will drop off at the top of the hour.

Cal Waytena says:
"

Chris Aldrich says:
sort of related to the idea of sister sites:
http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/SisterSites

Flancian (paramita) says:
[[atjson]] comes from conde nast

Peter Kaminski says:
https://wiki.c2.com/?SisterSites

Peter Kaminski says:
@Flancian, exactly right, [[atjson]].

Flancian (paramita) says:
that’s from [[blaine]]

Peter Kaminski says:
http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/SisterSite

Peter Kaminski says:
https://oddmuse.org/wiki/Sister_Pages

Flancian (paramita) says:
[[agora ext]] tries to offer the ‘resolve this entity elsewhere’ service, but it’s currently broken I think 😃

Bill Anderson says:
massive wiki uses lunr

Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
This is the other one I looked at -
https://pagefind.app/

Bill Anderson says:
search - it’s a people sorter

Chris Aldrich says:
There’s also a move to do deep links into applications that are non-web based recently:
https://linkingmanifesto.org/

Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
I am sort of split on deep links b/c I dislike apps conceptually but I’ll check that out

Flancian (paramita) says:
I need to drop as my guest has arrived, but I will watch the recording 😃 thank you all! have a great one 😃

Peter Kaminski says:
@Aram, the other static search library on our queue to look at:
https://stork-search.net/

Chris Aldrich says:
This site, btw:
https://tftmap.massive.wiki/

Chris Aldrich says:
hermeneutic cycle!

Peter Kaminski says:
thx Chris 😃

Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
Ooo I’ll check that stork search out as well

Peter Kaminski says:
it looks nice and modern 😃

Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
I’ve gotta drop right now, but pleasure talking to you all!

Chris Aldrich says:
Bentley, I’ve seen you with pen and paper before… those should count!

Chris Aldrich says:
The best tool is the one you’ve got with you…

Mathew Lowry
Mathew Lowry says:
😄

Cal Waytena says:
Ive got to run to class, thanks for sharing this with me!

Mathew Lowry says:
Thx 4 dropping by Cal

Bill Anderson says:
we are trying to lower the bars for massive wiki and for sharing via git

Mathew Lowry says:
“A more complete user manual is available on the Massive Wiki site…” 😄

2023-01-25

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]] [[SJ]]
[[Chris Aldrich]] Tools for thought call tomorrow with [[Mark Bernstein]] of Eastgate Systems, Inc. at https://lu.ma/2u5f7ky0
- Have we invited [[Boris Mann]] to FotL?
  - Good idea!
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
[[Check ins]]
- [[Peter Kaminski]]
  - Update on [[tools for thinking]].
  - First deliverable: getting a website up.
  - Had lots of fun using [[massive wiki]] to set this up, which resulted in feature requests (?).
- [[Bentley Davis]]
  - Only tangentially here :)
  - Working on a podcast: [[evidence explores]]
    - On objective truth vs ‘just communication’
  - [[Flancian]] what’s a good way to keep track of your projects?
    - No centralized place, mostly Twitter/Mastodon.
    - #jm https://bra.in/7pRnEx
    - Mostly playing with ideas. https://bentleydavis.com does cover the main goal though.
  - Chris: Bentley has a numbered list with ‘happiness’ instead of ‘profit’ :)
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - Have been brainstorming on a list of things to mirror Jerry’s list.
  - Reached out to [[Paul Rony]], starting a discussion related to the [[tools for thought podcast]].
  - Have a /now page on [[boffosocko]], will update it to expose plans and current work :)
  - Playing with [[massive wiki]] and [[media wiki]].
  - Getting close to cleaning up notes enough to join the [[Agora]] :)
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - three things from play to serious :)
  - https://wiki.rel8.dev/the_big_fungus
    - really liking it as a metaphor :)
    - goal: doing youtube shorts for a different reason, but thinking about doing shorts about fungi and other concepts in this space.
  - [[podcast]] and [[paul rony]]
    - [[tools for thinking]] – but won’t be called that
    - anybody interested, reach out! could be a rotating host/focus scheme
      - “[[fire ready aim]]”
    - a season just finished
    - “why tools for thinking” (is this hopeless?) was the topic of the last recorded one
  - trying to figure out the right structure for [[rel8]]
    - how can it help spark the shared memory, the big fungus, etc.
    - idea: create a center at some university/college. maybe in Portland?
    - idea: should [[rel8]] be a public entity? a dao? a [[DisCO]]? etc.
- [[SJ]] ~ [[metasj]]
  - Been working on a lot of [[wiki]] projects in the last few months.
    - Trying to amplify connectivity in the mycellium :)
    - e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Sources
    - there’s many lists of this kind in wikipedia; trying to create computer-readable versions of these, maintain them as datasets.
    - goal: making tables in any wiki convertable into different data formats, datasets
  - Revitalizing [[WikiCite]] project
    - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiCite
    - The internet archive is working on a related project.
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Udell]] built some bots that operated on citations and integrated them into hypothes.is
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] https://bra.in/5vNyXW
    - [[steam pipe]] ~ https://steampipe.io/
- [[Flancian]]
  - On layoffs across the industry
  - #pk someone said, on why does a company with a lot of money in the bank need to do layoffs? Mostly to make itself look good to investors in the short term.
    - game theoretic aspects (“everybody else is doing it”)
  - #ca hopefully this opens up new space?
  - Is there a jobs board for entrepreneurs in the knowledge space?
    - Not that we know of.
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- on conversation with X (who?)
- and the production of ‘non social’ artifacts
- [[Chris Aldrich]] on empowering students and teachers by democratizing history (paraphrasing)
- [[Big History project]] http://www.bighistoryproject.com/
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Christian_(historian)
- https://bra.in/3jL4kN
- [[SJ]] relationship with automation, which introduces a step function component in history
  - Science/tech sees automation as a solution, humanities tends to see it as generating problems
  - #ca https://xkcd.com/1205/
  - #jm history has a tendency to lock us into suboptimal but profit-maximizing structures
[[hypertalk]] podcast (likely name)
- [[flancian]] let’s start some pages for possible episodes and bootstrap a wiki-dialogue?
- [[SJ]] first idea: [[naming discussion]]
- [[SJ]] other topic: the possibilities opened up by [[generative models]]
  - people project baggage into the space (copyright, etc.)
[[SJ]] callout for starting an [[Awesome Foundation]]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sj/AwesomeKnowledge
- #jm what does it take to become a chapter?
- #sj you fill a form declaring interest in doing one award per month. the amounts are relatively small but the work (and the award) should be joyful
- #jm on [[serious fun]]
  - why do we separate work, play and learning?
  - #ca one of his favorite things about the [[indieweb]] community is the playfulness of it
    - lots of indieweb features start from “I wish my site could do this”
    - [[indieweb collective]] ~ https://opencollective.com/indieweb
  - [[SJ]] [[replit]] implemented bounties recently
    - [[bounties]], [[awards]] for cool things, [[microtransfers]]
  - Next step: brainstorm other communities that keep lists of ‘cool things to do’ associated with bounties or a similar incentive structure
  - [[lazy web]]
#push [[fotl threads]]
- define:
  - [[wiki]] / root URL
  - [[calendar]] URL
  - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
    - [[github]] by default?

2023-01-18

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]. If Jitsi will behave, [[Chris Aldrich]] will join in a minute or two…
Planning for the year
- Individually and as a fellowship? :)
- [[Jerry Michalski]] https://wiki.rel8.dev/bigger_goals
  - Trying to be more ‘action oriented’
  - Flancian interested in particular:
    - [[shared note taking]]
    - [[pattern languages]]
      - pattern languages vs. lists of patterns
      - [[pattern language workshop]] during the pandemic
    - Instrumenting patterns: some patterns are more amenable to turning into code
      - 1, 2, 4, all [[zoom app]]
      - meta facilitation app
    - [[wikilinks]] and [[hashtags]] as patterns
      - and their advanced used (conventions)
    - [[pattern candidate ideas]]
      - [[aram zucker]] this is the perfect use for a wiki
- [[Peter Kaminski]]
  - [[John Abbe]] and I are working on “[[SuperLiminal]]”, a public wiki
    - started as a [[massive wiki]], coming into focus
    - it’s about: [[pattern languages]], [[quality without a name]] ~ [[QWAN]], [[systems thinking]]
      - see https://codeberg.org/Massive-Wiki/SuperLiminal/src/branch/main/Discussing SuperLiminal%2C 2023-01-17.md
    - open concerns:
      - hard to adopt massivewiki, hard to onboard to it
      - it implies onboarding onto git
      - massive wiki is [[tool agnostic]] but in practice everybody is using [[obsidian]]
        
        one of the things with obsidian is that it’s getting more complex and less user friendly as it grows and adds more features
      - Peter’s dream system: [[opal]]. simpler and has git built in.
        
        https://developer.massive.wiki/opal
    - interesting idea for [[massive wiki]]
      - original acronym [[MaSVF]] (Markdown, shared, versioned, files)
      - [[Massive Human Intelligence Project]] (2021 as MaSVF Wiki, Markdown Shared Versioned Files, “Massive”)
      - federation as markdown attachments in email
    - [[the return of email]]
      - email attachments as a lightweight federation medium
      - node@anagora.org
      - #pk email-in to Obsidian?
        
        IFTTT and OneDrive, Patrick Berry (Medium)
        
        Using Integromat and Obsidian Webhooks, bwydoogh (Obsidian Forum)
    - [[git]] conflicts
      - on potentially automatically resolving wiki edits
        
        maybe outliner mode makes this easier
      - [[obsidian git]]
        
        keeps improving
        
        #pk atom/pulsar is picked up by non-technical users sometimes though
        
        [[pulsar]] https://pulsar-edit.dev/
    - Flancian: [[mastosearch]] as it relates to discovery of git repository / integration of the [[knowledge commons]]
      - (…)
      - Potential for a bad actor to move first and enclose the commons.
      - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] maybe fragmenting search is the best bet – e.g. make it easier for people to provision and use search tools
        
        https://context.center/topics/indie-search/
      - Should we worry about the [[enclosure problem]]?
        
        [[Peter Kaminski]]: I worry about enclosures but not about the enclosure problem in general?
        
        In the beginning we didn’t have centralized search engines. People chose them out of convenience.
        
        If you’re careful enough and say “last time we tried this it didn’t work out” maybe it’s enough.
        
        You can have the same content in many massive wikis. There is no authoritative versions, etc. So maybe [[massive wiki is enclosure proof]].
        
        Flancian +1 althought the question may be about the size of the backing commons. People may choose enclosure-friendly tools due to their convenience again.
        
        Aram: we need Federation.
        
        #jm [[kosmik]] [[fedwiki]]
        
        #pk https://murmurations.network/
        
        [[chris aldrich]] “The Read Write Web is no longer sufficient. I want the Read Fork Write Merge Web.” - Tantek
      - [[jerry michalski]] [[kosmik]] can be described as a distributed filesystem (or is built upon one)
        
        too promiscuous forking as in [[fedwiki]] is confusing
      - Aram: need to democratize the way we maintain and share search indexes.
        
        Probably also need a way to distinguish ‘I am linking to this page’ from ‘I am giving authority to this page’.
        
        schema.org has a property ‘is based on’
      - [[Peter Kaminski]] [[maparent]] has [[hyperknowledge]] which has similar characteristics
      - Flancian: client-based [[disintermediation]] as a complementary approach.
      - Aram: role distribution as we see in wikis? Tools for communities of knowledge.
      - #pk: xtension values for the rel=“” attribute in HTML5: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions
      - #ca Or user ability to search a variety of areas based on what they know or trust, so something along the lines of allowing the user to choose their search like https://github.com/CanisLupus/swift-selection-search does
      - #ca [[indieweb wiki]]: a community maintaining a wiki and a newsletter coming out each week
      - #pk [[VoteLinks]]: https://microformats.org/wiki/vote-links

2023-01-11

We’re back! :)
[[Checkins]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - [[Argentina 1985]]
  - Jerry left [[Argentina 1972]].
    - Traumatic family experiences.
    - Then [[Guerra sucia]].
  - Wounds of traumatic experiences, political reality.
  - On [[Ulysses S. Grant]] at the end of the [[US Civil War]].
    - Did the South lose the war but win history?
  - [[Amateur historian]] hypothesis:
    - The US is paying for how the Civil War was concluded poorly.
      - The Case for Reparations by Ta-Nehisi Coates - The Atlantic
    - Guillotining is not good :)
    - But we didn’t do a good enough job.
  - What’s happening now in Peru, in Germany/Europe with the rise of the right.
    - Do they teach the role of Japan in WWII in Japan proper?
      - (from Pete) From personal experience in Japan: educated people believe/know the military got the country into a war that they should not have; the military pulled the wool over the eyes of the Emperor and the people.
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] Spain and laws of forgetting.
    - [[Spanish Civil War]] – lots of people don’t know about it enough (or at all).
    - Pacto del olvido - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre / Pact of Forgetting - Wikipedia
    - https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/08/inenglish/1504869185_873265.html
  - [[Flancian]] on family/political history.
    - [[Paradox of Tolerance]].
  - [[Holocaust memory]]
  - [[Chris Aldrich]]: [[Restorative Justice]]
[[How to end conflicts well]]?
- Interesting focus of research.
- [[Flancian]] interested in reading about history of revolutions this year, to learn about how societies healed after them. [[Murray Bookchin]].
- [[Peter Kaminski]] very difficult to do this.
  - Interesting conversation recently on how the military manipulated common people; this is part of the narrative in Germany.
  - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    - Othering. In Japan, “the emperor did X”.
    - Experience of a (academic, see link) in Poland. Poland has a really large problem right now with fascism. Part of it has to do with how they have pushed all responsibility about WWII to Germany.
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] Regarding forgetting: finding mass graves in Spain during early 2010s.
    - [[Pact of Forgetting]] maybe backfiring.
    - Had a conversation with someone from [[South Africa]] about how [[Apartheid]] is still alive and well.
- [[F]] Obediencia Debida / [[Punto Final]] in [[Argentina]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Thomas Piketty]] :)
  - A Brief History of Equality — Thomas Piketty | Harvard University Press
  - Book on ends of slavery in different nations.
  - United States: reversed gears at some point, taking more of the ideology of the South
    - #jm on [[buyouts for slaveholders]]
    - The American Slave Coast: A History of the Slave-Breeding Industry, by Ned Sublette
    - “before the civil war, nobody could imagine the US surviving without slaves”
    - wealth was defined as owning the most lives
  - Thinking of the election of the speaker of the house
    - Most of the times there was so much contention on the election occurred before the Civil War; and then again during the rise of “White Power” movement in the 1920s
      - What a worrying pattern.
      - #jm minority eating the party, a snake eating a pig
      - Transitioning of Far Right House Members into perceived moderates
      - moving the [[Overton Window]]
      - control of the media
    - [[chris aldrich]] that compounded with [[social media]] dynamics
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] could we build tools for the better coordination of sanctions?
    - What if a [[press corps]] had a shared memory they could agree on
    - [[Flancian]] Coordination overhead brought down by coordination points
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] an academic who studied media in the middle 1920s, focusing on [[newspaper coverage]] of the [[KKK]]
    - Nowadays extreme views draw attention online.
  - [[Flancian]] on [[coordination points]] as devices for cooperation
    - Transferring the fewest bits necessary for establishing further cooperation / resolution of truth
  - [[Peter Kaminski]] a story on that
    - On [[Silicon Valley]]: surprised about the formal and informal structure that, once you ‘get’, makes everything a lot easier.
    - The short history of the valley starts in the [[70s]] and earlier than that.
    - Electronics in the area started in [[Stanford]], [[Hewlett Packard]].
    - [[Innovatitor’s Dilemma]] like processes: people leaving companies and starting new ones.
      - There was an understanding to ‘look the other way’ as they were all benefitting from [[promiscuous behaviour]] :)
    - Someone (who?) started in the 1990s and took them a while to grok the way things were doing; but once they did, the benefits were clear.
    - Lots of informal rules that the community settled on as an emergent process.
    - [[Coopetition]], both cooperative and cutthroat. Tons of legal agreements and operating procedures including banks evolved over decades to make the environment possible, though.
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] Silicon Valley optimizing
      - If you start a corporation, you usually get lots of support.
      - If you start a cooperative, you get crickets by default.
      - Exit to Community
      - https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/tools-resources-categories/boards-and-governance
      - https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/exempt-organization-types
    - Legal and Finance need to know how to cooperate.
      - Interdisciplinarity.
        
        [[Flancian]] this reminds me of the pattern [[golden age]] and the role of interdisciplinarity in ideal cooperative environments.
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] levels of [[trust]] as correlating with good cooperative environments.
      - How does a culture become resilient even in the face of loss.
      - Hard to tell of the nth order impact.
        
        [[Story of the Chinese Farmer]] :)
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] related and cool: Albion’s Seed: Four British Folkways in America (1989) https://bra.in/9pxJYK
      - Different groups with different cultures emigrating from Britain into the US
      - [[Chris Aldrich]] Woodard, Colin. American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America. 1st edition. Viking, 2011. https://www.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures/dp/0670022969. Woodard quotes Albion’s Seed as a precursor to his thesis.
      - [[Chris Aldrich]] on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being as built into culture, not being questioned often enough.
      - [[Jerry Michalski]] This is the job of religions. Forcing [[leaps of faith]] (which also selects for people willing/able to do this).
      - [[Chris Aldrich]] up to the 5th century Christianity was a story of internal fights.
      - Orthodoxy was picked up by fragments of state, hierarchies.
      - [[Flancian]] [[spirituality]] vs [[religiosity]] as per [[fritjof capra]]. [[Mysticism]] as [[heterarchy]] or at least a non-mediated non-hierarchical experiency.
      - [[Chris Aldrich]] centralization of power in cities, vs paganism as seen mostly tied to the countryside.
      - [[Jerry Michalski]] Scott Reframes Barbarians as What the “Civilizers” Called the Outsiders (who were freer and healthier). in Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States (2017)
      - [[Aram]] not consistent across cultures
        
        Series about Asian cultures folklore and horror on HBO. [[Freelance Shamanic Priesthood]] in Korea.
        
        [[Mudang]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_shamanism#Mudang
        
        A bit of an anarchic way
        
        [[Cátaros]]
      - [[Jerry Michalski]] on [[Catalonia]] to [[Langue d’Oc]], etc.
        
        Interesting cultures that were stamped out by greater hierarchical entities (e.g. Catholic Church)
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] paying attention to demonization
    - [[Anarchism]]
      - [[types of anarchism]] https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/d12b175b-7139-40f7-a80a-d196390cfe67/
      - are [[anarcho capitalists]] (see: Anarcho-capitalism) anarchists?
    - People understand something is broken but have been convinced into fraudulent explanations
      - The Futuristic Empire That Never Existed | Mia Mulder
      - Flat Earth: A Measured Response
      - Line Goes Up – The Problem With NFTs
        
        Some people want to be the boot
      - Misinformation studies
      - #az Capitalist Realism
        
        The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia
        
        The Real Death Toll of Communism
        
        The Real Death Toll of Capitalism
      - [[Peter Kaminski]] “capitalism is the most efficient system by the rules of capitalism”
        
        an [[Ontoshift]] might be needed :)
    - Problem of changing the future for climate change
      - Good book on this - How to Blow Up a Pipeline
    - #ca Maybe we should use the [[Hoffer]] playbook? Hoffer, Eric. The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements. Perennial Classics, 2002.
    - [[Jerry Michalski]]: “capitalism is a cuckoo”
    - [[corporate]] social media, etc as cuckoos for the commons.
    - [[chris aldrich]] on the meme of the [[tragedy of the commons]] as an example of the same.
      - The miracle of the commons
    - #ca on the issue of flyover states vs urban population centres
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] Handy mnemonic for farming in the US: during the civil war 80% of the population were farmers. By WWI it was 20%. now it’s 1.5% (!).
    - [[Flancian]]: [[bolo bolo]] tries to systematize collaboration of urban and rural communities in a federated way
    - Plans for the new year
[[jitsi chat]]
- me says:
  https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link?edit

20:05
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:The South Lost the War but Won the Battle over Its History
https://bra.in/5pdxzV

Jerry Michalski says:Ghosts of Spain: Travels Through Spain and Its Silent Past
Jerry Michalski says:but…
20:08
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:Some have said that the holocaust was easier to memorialize in post-war Germany because there were so few Jews left as fellow citizens after-the-fact.
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/15/1136738601/clint-smith-atlantic-germany-holocaust-us-slavery-memorials

20:09
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:easier? wouldn’t that have made it easier to ignore?
Jerry Michalski says:reason for this topic: last night I finished watching Argentina, 1985, which is very good
Jerry Michalski says:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina,_1985

20:10
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:Easier in comparison to the white South dealing with African-Americans after the Civil War…
20:10
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:mmmm
20:10
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:Clint Smith’s recent Atlantic article is possibly interesting here.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/12/holocaust-remembrance-lessons-america/671893/

20:11
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Jerry Michalski says:You Can’t Tolerate the Intolerant
20:11
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:I’ve heard 4 references to Popper the last few days…
20:11
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:his PR must be working overtime…
20:11
me says:[[murray bookchin]]
20:13
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:Restorative Justice has a lot of research over the past decade+ which can speak to this topic as well.
20:13
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:+1
Jerry Michalski says:which book of Bookchin’s?
20:13
me says:it’s a process of Othering, right?
me says:Jerry:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-ursula-k-le-guin-the-next-revolution
for the next revolution, foreword by Ursula Le Guin 😃
me says:and then…
me says:
https://www.amazon.com/Third-Revolution-Popular-Movements-Revolutionary/dp/0304335940
[[the third revolution]]
me says:and other volumes
20:16
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:thanks!
20:17
me says:I am reminded of Maus
20:17
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Forgetting
from the notes
20:18
me says:in Argentina there were also laws of ‘forgiveness’
me says:called ‘obediencia debida’ and ‘punto final’
20:18
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:The final handful of lectures in
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/understanding-japan-a-cultural-history
provide an interesting perspective on Japan’s relationship with WWII.
20:19
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:It has backfired quite spectacularly. The last time I was in Spain there was anti-immigration graffiti and swastika stickers everywhere.
20:19
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:Café Para Todos
Jerry Michalski says:The American Slave Coast: A History of the Slave-Breeding Industry
https://bra.in/2jbXbk

Jerry Michalski says:minority eating the party
20:23
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:Piketty, Thomas. A Brief History of Equality. Translated by Steven Rendall. Harvard University Press, 2022.
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674273559
.
20:25
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://www.salon.com/2023/01/10/marjorie-taylor-greene-wants-to-be-a-mainstream-now-sadly-the-media-will-let-it-happen/

20:25
me says:the overton window!
20:26
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:poor overton 😃
Jerry Michalski says:he must be cold
Jerry Michalski says:the Dean Scream. wow
Jerry Michalski says:The Second Coming of the KKK: The Ku Klux Klan of the 1920s and the American Political Tradition (2017) ?
Jerry Michalski says:put this in my Brain in Dec. 2021: Imagine the White House Press Corps During Trumps Reign…
https://bra.in/2jgDYr

Jerry Michalski says:a Massive Flungus?
20:32
me says:
https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link?edit

20:33
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:The fire in my brain always seems directly related to the velocity of tabs opening in my browser…
20:33
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Terman

Jerry Michalski says:
https://www.netvalley.com/silicon_valley/Fred_Terman_Father_of_Silicon_Valley.html

Jerry Michalski says:maybe there should be a public tab-meter?
Jerry Michalski says:silicon valley became a superconductor for startups
20:35
me says:he works with “exit to community”
20:39
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:coop coalition, does that still exist?
20:39
me says:interdisciplinarity
20:40
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:Design from Trust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVgqsElvISM

Jerry Michalski says:Avram,
https://platform.coop/

Jerry Michalski says:American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America
Jerry Michalski says:related and cool: Albion’s Seed: Four British Folkways in America (1989)
https://bra.in/9pxJYK

20:44
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:Woodard, Colin. American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America. 1st edition. Viking, 2011.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Nations-History-Regional-Cultures/dp/0670022969
.
Chris Aldrich says:Woodard quotes Albion’s Seed as a precursor to his thesis.
20:46
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:oh cool!
Jerry Michalski says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_chain_of_being

20:47
me says:an ontology?
me says:makes me think of [[ontoshift]]
20:47
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:push to orthodoxy (“right” thinking)
20:49
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

Jerry Michalski says:nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Jerry Michalski says:Scott Reframes Barbarians as What the “Civilizers” Called the Outsiders (who were freer and healthier)
Jerry Michalski says:in Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States (2017)
20:52
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_shamanism#Mudang

20:54
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:To the ancient Greeks “barbarian” essentially meant one who doesn’t speak Greek.
20:54
me says:I’d like to read a history of the world as hierarchy vs federalism
me says:maybe Graeber wrote it in some way?
20:58
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:I mean there have to be a number of philosophic anarchists who have written good stuff on this
20:59
me says:[[better history books]]
me says:Aram: yes, and I hope to meet them all 😃 or 80% of them
20:59
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:My History Canon
https://bra.in/7pK4Bq

Jerry Michalski says:Anarchism is that
Jerry Michalski says:pay attention to demonization
21:00
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:the Barbara Streisand effect on these groups?
21:01
me says:I can really recommended [[the next revolution]]
21:01
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:pay attention to demonization
Jerry Michalski says:Types of Anarchism
https://bra.in/4q5zKj

Jerry Michalski says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Jerry Michalski says:sorry! I accidentally started playing our recording, which stopped
21:03
me says:harari turned me around a bit on money as an efficient/general coordination device
21:04
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:this explains Q-Anon somewhat, too
21:05
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtU_M0Sjd9Y

21:06
me says:they have traits of religions
me says:and big corporations do as well
21:07
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:Capitalist Realism - Wikipedia
Peter Kaminski says:The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia
21:11
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:Maybe we should use the Hoffer playbook? Hoffer, Eric. The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements. Perennial Classics, 2002.
21:13
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:capitalism is a cuckoo
21:16
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:from Flancian: social media is a cuckoo (looks like a commons, but pushes out real commons)
21:18
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:the ole extend, embrace extinguish bit.
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false-and-dangerous-myth

21:18
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:capitalism moves quicker than most other systems… I think
Jerry Michalski says:farming trends in the US
21:19
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:capitalism accelerates well, to use Chris’s word
21:19
me says:[[bolo bolo]] tries to systematize collaboration of urban and rural communities in a federated way
21:19
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:I’d completely forgotten about bolo bolo. thank you!
21:21
me says:
https://anagora.org/2023

2023-01-04

Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]] first
- Then [[Jerry Michalski]] and [[Bentley Davis]] joined!
New and fresh, also cold and rainy :)
Both playing catch up with the last few weeks of 2022!
[[Chris Aldrich]]
- Took a few days off with family
- Rose Bowl happening soon, city disrupted :)
  - [[Rose Parade]]
- Caught up with [[Jerry’s podcast]]
  - [[Canvases]] and [[murder boards]]
- Chris got into this space since ~2018-ish, but started keeping websites 1992-93 (took a hiatus on 1998 or so, started tinkering again on 2005) and blogging on ~2008
- Over 40000 posts (!) 47,000+
- Cross posting from own content to other targets.
- [[Microformats]]
  - Wordpress -> social media is easier
  - Social media -> wordpress is more convoluted
- Social media search
  - [[thread helper]] by [[xiq]] for [[twitter]]
  - [[fedisearch]]?
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- “I’m interested in everything dammit”
- Spoke to a Romanian connection (?)
- [[Paul Rony]] from [[Kosmik]] is interested in the Tools for Thinking podcast
  - Umbrella topics for the podcast
    - People stepping in and presenting on threads, channel like or associated to channels in a community
    - Would like to use [[tools for thinking]] in the podcast
  - Paul’s initial interest is mainly on the history of the field
    - [[J. C. R. Licklider]]
    - Douglas Engelbart
    - Vannevar Bush
    - …
    - How to increase literacy in the field
    - Assessing earlier work on the basis on how it panned out, how it as influential
      - E.g. the earlier Finder was more in line with such-and-such vision, then features were removed.
    - Jerry is interested in how these visions influenced our present and future, and how modern visions are doing the same.
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] conversations that were built out (related to [[Seesmic]] in a distributed way starting from websites
    - [[Bookmarking service for audio]].
      - https://huffduffer.com
        -> [[high frequency direction finding]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-frequency_direction_finding
    - When you’re in a page that has audio, you can clip and annotate.
    - Could yield podcast annotation (and also improve production)
    - Example: https://huffduffer.com/search?q=tools+for+thought
  - #jm [[docdrop]]
    - #jm [[peter kaminski]] is interested in tools that take a raw youtube video and enhance them
  - #jm https://wiki.rel8.dev/rethinking_the_tools_for_thinking_podcast
  - [[flancian]]
    - [[fedisearch]]
    - [[promnesia]]
    - meta on podcast production starting from channels
    - https://anagora.org/go/agora-chapter intro could work as an outline of a podcast intro :)
  - [[chris aldrich]]
    - very nice work on the podcast wiki page
    - #push [[tools for thinking podcast]]
      - #go https://wiki.rel8.dev/tools_for_thinking_podcast
      - Would like to reskin to be more like [[Andy Matuschak]]'s garden.
      - Riverside.fm doesn’t have chat.
      - Might go back to Zoom for that and other reasons.
      - [[flancian]] can I share this with Meet?
        
        #jm yes
        
        [[Chris Aldrich]] themability would be nice as well :)
      - Remixing potential
[[fediverse]] presence
- @j3rry@toolsforthought.rocks
- @flancian@social.coop
- @chrisaldrich@mastodon.social
- @BentleyDavis@toolsforthought.rocks
[[jerry michalski]]
- [[neuroplasticity]] gap, as when computers first came into the workforce and touchtyping became a differentiator
- been thining about how to be a [[good cyborg]]
- [[chris aldrich]] when I browse your brain, I know how you structure information, and I use that. That grammar is now “built in”. But when browsing other people’s usage, there’s more friction.
- In a social media centric world, maybe you put information in X but then later you search it in Y.
- #jm [[My Brain Has Comfortable Local Structure]] ~ https://bra.in/5jXDEy
- [[Chris Aldrich]] film history and the development of language
  - [[three camera explosion]]
- #jm [[Today’s Internet Is Stuck in Mainstream Media Metaphors]]
  https://youtube.com/shorts/yT0r6D1h_iQ?feature=share
- [[grammar]] and [[language]]
- #flancian [[mental model translation]], translating from [[jerry’s brain]] to [[boffosocko]] parlance
- [[chris aldrich]] infinite canvas on html page, essentially a [[murder board]], 2d website
How do we do this?
- Let’s all share yearly plans / 2y plans / 7y plans personally and then mind meld?
- [[jerry michalski]] https://wiki.rel8.dev/bigger_goals
- [[flancian]] [[revolutionary calendar]] [[agora plan]]
- [[chris aldrich]] will work on this
- #ca [[Feynman]] had a list of [[12 problems to work on]]
On sharing notes
- [[markdown]] or [[atjson]]?
  - [[flancian]] unsure but prefer the earlier due to readability and wide support
  - [[agora yaml]] somewhere in the repo to configure knowledge integration
  - /.well-known/
- #ca visual vs non visual thinking, and translation between the two
  - #jm [[mindtime]] model
    - historically oriented -> this has worked in the past
    - future oriented -> this is what this will yield
  - [[sapir whorf hypothesis]]
  - Jerry Michalski “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” [[Santayana]]
  - [[learning styles]], [[neurodiversity]]
    - #ca on people finding e.g. they have [[adhd]] or that they’re in the spectrum in their 40s and 50s.
    - #flancian motivating/elliciting discussions about communication styles might help people (individuals and groups) find out things about themselves, constructively

2022-12-28

No attendance due to New Years :)

2022-12-21

Attending: [[jerry michalski]], [[flancian]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
[[football]]
- [[world cup]] final
- violence, fifa, [[qatar]]
  - hierarchies
- but also a form of art?
[[commons]]
- are we irrationally hopeful?
- how do egalitarians and distributed communities defend themselves against hierarchies?
  - [[paradox of tolerance]]
  - how do you build trust?
  - [[daryl davis]] ~ https://bra.in/6qZQZBand and his experiences with the [[ku klux klan]]
    - [[how can you hate me if you don’t know me]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4gly9n9RBo
  - [[bouncers and buddhas]] by [[reddy2go]]
  - [[commons]] vs [[hierarchies]]
  - [[autopoiesis]]
- [[jerry michalski]] [[nested containment]]
- [[bentley davis]]
  - working on [[sense making]] and [[cat herding]] (actually human)
  - you can have [[sense making]] without others, and that’s the default for many tools, but it’s relatively.
- [[jerry michalski]]
  - on the [[commons]]: [[protect]], [[defend]] and [[explore]]
- [[agora]]
  - https://fotl.agor.ai is down :(
- [[sense doing]]
  - [[marc antoine parent]]
  - there was some disagreement in the mailing list and some members left (they were not left leaning, so distinct in that sense – a missed opportunity)
  - [[flancian]] can I help in some way?
    - [[bentley davis]] right now it’s still in gestation phase, not one clear vision yet
    - [[jerry michalski]] there’ll be another call to try to define this, probably after christmas
      - tried some organization, moving some of the meta to mattermost, but the [[idea loom]] app works on email only for now
      - more interested on the greenfield take of ‘what would an ideal organization do about these matters’
    - [[flancian]] could we find a conservative counterpart to our group and engage on a group-to-group level?
      - [[bentley davis]] something like https://braverangels.org
      - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z-SJXlX3BdI-92X19FQNPMkK65RpsPApyw9V6U7dthk/edit#heading=h.jw9qcfe7v9uj
    - building a [[map]] together as a way to collaborate even as we disagree
      - “tell me more about that”
    - #push [[All that we Share]]
      - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD8tjhVO1Tc from Denmark
      - [[Smartocracy]]: Social Networks for Collective Decision Making (2007 pdf)
    - two agoras having a conversation
    - idea: [[prompt engineering]] with [[chat gpt]] to interpret a well-known opponent (e.g. [[steve bannon]])
  - #push [[t4t podcast]]
    - [[jerry michalski]]
    - https://wiki.rel8.dev/t4t_s01e03_-_space,pixels_and_cognition(yiliu_and_john)
#push [[fotl threads]]
- define:
  - [[wiki]] / root URL
  - [[calendar]] URL
  - [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
    - [[github]] by default?

2022-12-14

Attending: [[jerry michalski]] [[peter kaminski]] [[chris aldrich]] [[bentley davis]] [[eduardo ivanec]] (flancian)
[[peter kaminski]] channel suggestion
on [[ogm]] mailing lists and the purpose of [[open global mind]]
- are we open, global? or more like left-leaning?
- is it a discussion group or a place to get stuff done ™
- #pk ogm as a group is getting lots done, just not strictly within that banner
- #jm open question: how many OGMs are there?
- #jm using social tools to make sense of our shared projects instead of individual tools
- #pk [[kaffeeklatsch]]
[[chris aldrich]] in his experience with communities, the best model seen is to throw email overboard – and to use a public [[wiki]] that is easy to edit combined with a [[chat]] that is searchable.
- #jm proposal:
  - [[mattermost]] for chat – [[sense doing]]
  - [[massive wiki]] for wiki
- [[flancian]] is there a [[shared calendar]]? for meetings such as OGM’s and this one.
  - #jm Peter has a page in a massive wiki with
  - is there a source of truth for other resources as well?
- [[flancian]] [[sense doing]] vs [[fellowship of the link]] channels
  - [[sense doing]] is a wider channel associated with a particular project
- [[sense doing]] #jm name/focus?
  - #jm relationship with [[tools for thinking]] podcast
  - #jm [[covid response]] is a possible case study: what would the ideal national response look like?
  - #jm but [[tools for thinking]] history might be a better first study case, less politically charged
- [[chris aldrich]] ~ #ca
  - should we disable the chat in jitsi and instead use something with archival?
- [[flancian]] n.b. [[wikilinks everywhere]] and agora bot
  - [[python]]
- [[chris aldrich]] has an acquaintance that is working on “how do you get a lab working with internal communication tools to publish a subset of their information” – a grant application could be written
  - Joshua M. Greenberg
  - #jm did some work in this space with [[marc antoine parent]] and [[bentley davis]]
  - #ca knows a group that is promoting science donations among high net worth individuals, in particular open science IT in academia
  - #bd I know the founder of https://qiqochat.com which has zoom integrated with several different chat and document technologies.
  - Jack Dorsey apparently is granting funds, too
  - [[librarian carpentries]] has two associated sites
  - #pk we have a number of projects that seem to be in this space
    - [[tile]], [[mosaic]] definitions could be used in this context, but we should stall on defining those
      - cluster of projects -> project
  - [[bentley]] [[hyperknowledge]]
    - #jm [[idea loom]]
misc from jitsi chat
- “kaffeeklatsch” - it’s just a fun word 😃
- “Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch”
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Wrexham
  - the deadpan Welsh translator: https://youtu.be/2g3m9p35cDo?t=40
- email threads are impossible
  - says:email threads exception that proves the rule: Linux kernel mailing list
- and email is difficult to archive well
- caveat 1: someone needs to maintain it all…
- The IndieWeb has an interactive bot that does help to capture from chat into the wiki, but that requires some programming lift to get done.
- France vs. Morocco, FIFA World Cup 2022™
  - for soccer, it’s always the first five minutes and last five minutes.
  - Vikings got to Morocco in AD 859:
    https://www.heritagedaily.com/2022/12/the-vikings-in-africa/145505
- DocDrop
- WebRTC clients
- also BigBlueButton
- HedgeDoc is kinda complex for people to edit together
- anagora.org/fotl has all the chats I’ve dumped from here (or most)
SenseDoing
- name?
- focus?
- #push [[sensedoing]]
  - SenseDoing channel
  - active conversation is mostly in the [[ogm list]]

2022-12-07

Attending: [[jerry michalski]] [[peter kaminski]] [[bentley davis]] [[flancian]]

Thinking Tools Map Project

website now published, https://tftmap.massive.wiki/
- \o/
- exciting progress on massive wiki – Peter presents
  - hacked massive wiki theme to have a notice bar :)
  - had to get involved with some [[css frameworks]]
  - turns out that many sites seem fine with the menu scrolling with the content, having no fixed navbar, etc.
  - bentley: can offer CSS help, has experience
- (airtable review)
- #push [[massive wiki wednesday]]
  - https://hackmd.io/95GfL68PRsSc7wieGMgdAQ (temp location only)
  - moving from github to maybe [[codeberg]]
- hoping to have Phase 0 done next week some time
- [[permanent versions]]
  - a wiki is supposed to be changing all the time – so giving a link to a page has always felt slightly weird to Peter, as the target will have changed by the time the recipient clicks on it
  - how to version?
    - point in time / commit, offer a link to HEAD?
    - approach:
      - sha256 / hashing based approach / content based addressing
      - of an html snapshot
        
        flancian: this might introduce dependencies on particular rendering engines
    - comparison vs ipfs actual content based addressing
      - (…)
  - on [[codeberg]] forking [[gitea]]
  - thoughts on [[chat gpt]]
    - ‘automatic explanations’ for change management/changes in a wiki
  - three word (or whatever) navigation to a particular git hash (sort of like the interface presented by what3words)
  - making git history more easily navigable by non-technical / non-Git experts
  - date-anchored vs content-anchored
    - interwiki links
- #push [[gordon brander]] and [[subconscious]]
  - [[jerry michalski]] talked with him on Monday
  - [[noosphere]] would love to have at least a subset of Jerry’s brain \o/
- #push [[paul rony]] – the founder of [[kosmik]] (sp?)
  - [[french]]
  - loves computer history
  - a podcast / community / etc. to talk about:
    - early visionaries (e.g. [[vannevar bush]])
    - how does that bridge into new tools and visions
[[flancian]]
- https://fotl.agor.ai
- [[agora bridge]] approach / trying to reuse at least importing steps
- [[jerry michalski]] – take [[visions]] https://bra.in/2pxbo6 as a starting point, do nth degree crawling
- [[peter kaminski]]
  - [[meme brane]]
    - https://memebrane.conversence.com
  - [[jerry’s brain]] in a postgresql database, where each node is a row
    - note that Jerry doesn’t use node titles
  - the above already don’t map 1:1/well to [[massive wiki]] data structures
  - we’re all representing information but that information has different shapes
  - lossy translations can be very lossy
- [[flancian]]
  - (something optimist)
- [[jerry michalski]]
  - most of his brain would usually end up looking like small markdown files with a link
  - [[peter kaminski]] relatively easy to move data brain -> massive wiki, but it’s not obvious how to go the other way
- https://mcbrain.netlify.app/brainish/jerry/32f9fc36-6963-9ee0-9b44-a89112919e29

2022-11-16

Attending: [[peter kaminski]] [[jerry michalski]] [[mathew lowry]] [[flancian]] [[chris aldrich]]
Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
#pull [[fotl threads]]
Mastodon servers related to our topics
- also see: https://mathewlowry.medium.com/am-i-on-the-right-mastodon-instance-a0aee14ca00f
- https://pkm.social/
- https://toolsforthought.rocks/
- [[flancian]] https://social.coop ;) commons friendly!
[[check ins]]
- [[mathew lowry]] is back!
  - still coughing, seeing a specialist – but nothing serious it seems, getting better.
  - massive.wiki progressing
    - here to say hello mostly but also to touch on the progress in this project :)
  - exploring mastodon: 2 posts so far, become a server mod, trying to connect EU to Europe
  - pulled out of PKGBook: preparing several posts
  - found several documents relevant to the dimensionality discussion through [[fotl]], has been researching
- [[jerry michalski]]
  - [[mathew lowry]] last time we saw each other, Jerry was in Budapest
  - last week in the [[linux foundation]] summit, funny for two reasons
    - [[April Rinne]] gave a speech
    - [[OpenSSF]] https://openssf.org/ ~ open [[supply chain security]]
    - marinated many ideas/projects in a pool of open source for a week
- [[peter kaminski]]
  - [[thinking tools map project]] often meets 2h earlier during [[Massive Wiki Wednesday]]
  - decided to [[expand the kimono]] (letting more people in?)
    - (aside: “open the kimono” means “let others peek inside our business” – this expression comes from business/finance/vc/enterprise world)
    - https://wordhistories.net/2022/01/10/open-the-kimono/
- [[chris aldrich]]
  - on PKG book: same issue as Mathew had, dropped out partly because of the abysmal contract language.
    - [[mathew lowry]] there was also a lack of alignment in perspectives.
    - [[chris aldrich]] terms were severe enough that it sounded like authors needed to pay them (for further editions?)
  - mastodon activity
    - it needs to be more than “free twitter”
    - seeing people make the same assumptions/maybe mistakes as in previous waves
    - [[mathew lowry]] blog post “am I on the right Mastodon instance?” https://mathewlowry.medium.com/am-i-on-the-right-mastodon-instance-a0aee14ca00f
  - how to find the right instance remains unsolved
    - affinity (over which dimensions?)
      - [[flancian]] similar to the tools for thought map problem
      - #push [[map of the fediverse]]
        
        https://fediverse.party
        
        https://the-federation.info/#projects
    - geographical proximity
    - 7k new instances over the last week or so
      - #jm doesn’t sound like that much?
      - #ml power law distribution
    - stress test of the fediverse
      - #ca many new instances are probably well meaning but might still go up in flames/smoke too soon (historical data shows this is likely)
      - #ca the indieweb approach of ‘local first, then syndicate’ is resilient to this
    - archival program
      - #jm is google indexing the fediverse?
      - mostly yes, but maybe not very highly ranked currently
- [[mathew lowry]] let’s talk more about the mapping project next week 2h earlier than this call?
  - notes from earlier today: https://hackmd.io/Ec8Wxpe0S5y7g-yCb6tVUA?both
  - see also the massive wiki: [[go/ttm]]
- [[jerry michalski]]
  - on [[decision trees]] for things like buying consuming electronics
    - [[peter kaminski]] [[wirecutter]]
    - [[flancian]] on browsing paths as potentially informing the construction of such trees
    - [[metasj]] [[hunch]] ~ hunch.com – saddened it didn’t produce such a thing
      - “[[pachinko process]]” :)
- [[flancian]]
  - [[knowledge commons]]
    - attended [[synthesis infrastructures workshop]] last Sunday (thanks [[metasj]] in absentia!)
      - https://synthesis-infrastructures.wiki/ has a lot of interesting + relevant content
    - [[agora]]
      - two main focuses over the next month or so:
        
        [[agor.ai]] bring up more agoras finally (containerized)
        
        [[fediverse]] support (see also below)
  - [[fediverse]]
    - https://moa.party seeing a lot of activity
      - [[mathew lowry]]: you never got back to me about moa.party not working ;)
      - [[flancian]] sorry about that! I still need to peek into the database to see what’s up there, I have no idea why it’s not working for that
    - https://social.coop same
- [[sj]]
  - discourse graph tools
    - there’s been a mapping project – how can we use existing tools for thought for this purpose?
    - “here is the umbrella discourse graph for the optimal design for X / approaches to carbon sequestration”
    - this group in particular has a few hundred roam graphs (!)
    - if you have been dealing with questions/assertions/claims in your graphs, reach out because they’re looking for examples of how people deal with this on the field
      - #jm https://www.societylibrary.org/ and https://forby.io
      - [[bentley]] and https://canonicaldebatelab.com/
  - if people want to share research and experiences in paper or close-to-paper format, [[sj]] is happy to connect those with a potential audience :)
    - maybe the pkg book chapters could be a good fit? will tell [[mathew lowry]]
    - [[chris aldrich]] (on repurposing)
    - (leading to self-plagiarism, plagiarism :) [[the ecstasy of influence]] https://harpers.org/archive/2007/02/the-ecstasy-of-influence/
      - Chris’s daughter on learning things: “[[myself told myself]]”
      - #jm Pop Culture (live mashup) by Madeon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTx3G6h2xyA
  - how do you decide when people are talking about the same thing?
  - [[sj]] ‘’[[coralline]]‘’ approaches to discovery+syndication: allowing separate author, curator, reader tags to help match readers to writing https://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Sj/coralline
  - [[sj]] I want supporting moderation/filtering as close to the reader as possible (informed by lists and flags maintained/curated by polycentric network), e.g. storing context and archives and prefs/filtering/indexes locally: disk continues to compress. 512GB microsd now < $25 https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Android-Computer-Console-Bluetooth/dp/B0B81B4GXC
placeholder
check [[fotl threads]]?

2022-11-09

[[the expanse]]
- #jm A Big Inspiration for OGM Is to Build the “Epstein Drive” for Civilization’s Memory and Decisions (“Epstein Drive” is from The Expanse)
- [[ui]] innovations ;)
- #jm [[minority report]] -> [[gspeak]] http://www.oblong.com/g-speak/
- #jm [[betaworks podcast]] https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rELqjWh8GHBgvmqVHBBmA (fav)
- https://techcrunch.com/2010/10/15/hands-on-with-the-mit-media-labs-g-speak-interface/
[[check ins]]
- [[flancian]]
  - social.coop work
    - fediverse
  - [[agora chapter]]
- [[jerry michalski]]
  - near [[tahoe]], Resort at Squaw Creek
  - [[linux foundation]] is having its member summit, https://events.linuxfoundation.org/lf-member-summit/attend/venue-travel/
  - helping facilitate a meeting
  - two stories
    - talking to someone working on medicare, asked a question – someone else answered :)
      - duopoly on hospital information systems is in place
      - [[open ehr]] could be the best path
    - [[futurewei]] – future oriented think tank by [[huawei]], https://www.futurewei.com/
    - Huawei, [[OpenHarmony]]
      - how do you bridge open source across political boundaries?
        
        interesting take on “[[intellectual property]]” and political boundaries (and global macroeconomics): [[The End of the Road to Serfdom]] by Cory Doctorow
        
        #jm [[franklin]] made a living without paying any royalties; [[quakers]] “borrowing” the fondant method by swiss
  - impressed by the scope of projects being supported by the [[linux foundation]]
  - trying to articulate the [[rel8]] project: [[shared memory]]
  - [[rebuilding ukraine]] as a project
    - How to prepare your house for an active wartime? : NoStupidQuestions
    - [[chris aldrich]] align with external economic incentives, e.g. Japan after ww2?
    - #jm Japanese optics technology came from plans/designs that were retrieved from [[zeiss]] Germany by the US
    - [[peter kaminski]] worked in telcos in the 80s, saw some degree of [[learned helplessness]] (AT&T could do no wrong)
    - #jm interesting contrast with what happened in the auto industries in these countries, [[deming]] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_Deming
    - #pk then cargo culting [[just in time]] back from [[toyota]]
    - #jm [[obeya]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obeya
    - [[peter kaminski]] used to work an [[enterprise wiki]] company, got exposure to [[obeya]] rooms
    - #jm stamping system for consensus-management on proposals, based on paper. angle encodes agreement.
    - #pk wikipedia editing cultures, on how to create a wiki page us/japan/germany
    - [[chris aldrich]] solutions going from the top to the bottom and then “pinging back up” in a company structure
- [[peter kaminski]]
  - Thinking Tools Map Project still chugging along, we’re still working on “dimensions” and making good (but slow) progress. We’re using Airtable for some of our brainstorming about dimensions.
    - our brainstorming Airtable, take it all with a grain of salt: https://airtable.com/invite/l?inviteId=invNGlDl702PpLJw0&inviteToken=6d20ee0fcda6d460240d202c746e1c408db3cf8202a55a860135f3489e498976
  - random tool: [[Quillbot]] looks like a useful writing tool, including different paraphrasing modes and AI summarization (I signed up for a 1-year subscription)
    - [[Lex.page]] is an up-and-coming writing tool with a nice, friendly interface, and has some AI features
  - dimensions discussion
    - focused on what [[user friendliness]] means
    - (demo) :)
- [[bentley davis]]
  - no checkin today
  - on the interactions between the tools graph and what [[canonical debate lab]] needs/has done
- [[chris aldrich]]
  - [[betaworks tft]]: https://www.betaworks.com/media
- [[composability]] vs [[interoperability]]
  - #pk structurally similar, but at different hierarchical levels (interoperability is “outside the system”)
  - microsoft approach of ‘integrating’ open source projects and providers, but adding a proprietary overlay

2022-11-02

Attending: [[peter kaminski]] [[chris aldrich]] [[aram zucker-scharff]] [[jerry michalski]] [[flancian]]
[[peter kaminski]] [[airtable]]
- #push [[thinking tools map]]
  - working on [[project plan]] prior to bringing it to the [[fellowship of the link]]
  - https://dainty-sable-264aa3.netlify.app/project/measuring_thinking_tools.html
- [[chris aldrich]] [[openness]] axis seems too dense
  - we should also assume that developers will tackle the low hanging fruit / perform minimum effort to tick a box if that’s within reach :)
  - [[mathew lowry]] is keen on keeping the number of dimensions low-ish, 6-8 dimensions
    - which would look nice in a spidergraph
  - [[chris aldrich]] also makes sense to apply the pareto principle
- [[calendar]] https://calendar.google.com/calendar/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=NW8zbXUzOXAxMWZxNjlydGFwcWV0YnNnZWQgcGV0ZXIua2FtaW5za2lAbQ&tmsrc=peter.kaminski%40gmail.com
  - [[flancian]] link doesn’t seem to work?
[[aram zucker-scharff]] interoperability
- easiest way is to piggyback on what they’re already doing
- people onboarding onto [[mastodon]]
  - people coming up with lots of new things in the tool space – many requiring to sign in with both mastodon and twitter
  - [[chris aldrich]] no algorithmic feed, fewer features – as a feature :)
  - instances are more like twitter lists, at a similar level
  - [[mastodon]] vs the rest of the [[fediverse]], e.g. [[lemmy]] / [[pleroma]]
- [[bluesky]]
  - associated with [[twitter]], but
  - [[pfrazee]]
- #jm is there something better than ActivityPub/Mastodon for people that want a replacement?
  - [[flancian]] don’t know anything promising currently that is not ActivityPub based
  - [[pleroma]] [[lemmy]] [[misskey]] are all built on top of ActivityPub too
- [[advertising]] as an option to individuals funding instances as hobby projects
- [[coops]] as another option
  - #azs [[data coops]]
- #jm book about quakers / morals and [[travelling brothers]]
  - history of [[guilds]]
  - industrial revolution starts to hit, early capitalists realize they need to undermine the guild system
    - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4467218-travelling-brothers?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wM2PoCC5zD&rank=12
  - [[apprentice]] -> [[yeomen]] -> [[master]]
  - [[masterpiece]] is what the [[yeomen]] had to build to become a master
  - “advertising is the colonizing force of capitalism in internet spaces”
  - [[mutual aid]] societies yielded technologies like [[insurance]]
  - it feels like we’re trying to find our way back to some of these concepts
- #azs book on modern unions
  - you can’t get to the revolution until people feel safe
  - Ah i was thinking of [[Fight Like Hell]] by Kim Kelly

2022-10-26

Attending: [[peter kaminski]] [[chris aldrich]] [[flancian]] [[bentley davis]] [[maparent]] [[samuel klein]]
Second call on [[Wednesday]].
Recording in Jitsi only works in Chromium.
- No firefox, no safari for now.
- Worth filing a bug.
Last time recap
- Integration of tools for thought
- Hyperknowledge and Agora
- Debate tools and quality of discourse as they relate to the political scene
Check ins
- [[maparent]]
  - Discussed a lot of common issues in [[free jerry’s brain]] meeting on Monday.
  - In there we spoke about [[hyperknowledge]] and [[next actions]] as well.
  - Among other things, made a plea for [[concept glue]] between systems.
    - Deep links, deep addressability aspects seem key.
    - Making cross linking easy.
  - Bentley brought up: we could achieve a better understanding by trying some use cases and seeing which kind of maps do we want to build off real data.
    - [[flancian]] we had a pending AI from a previous meeting that
  - [[frame views]] URLs for concepts and for frames centered around that thing
    - [[flancian]] sounds similar to [[nodes]]
    - [[chris aldrich]] lots of note taking tools are text based, and backing databases are non public / don’t have URLs
      - #map deep linking and addressability is indeed about having a URL for each block even in those scenarios
      - [[web annotations]] use ranges, we could have the same for markdown
      - “xpath for markdown”
        
        +1
        
        web annotation targets for markdown
      - [[flancian]] what about wikilinks as anchors within notes?
        
        #map semantic ambiguity
        
        #flancian Not sure
        
        #map doesn’t work in the general case as it’s only controlled by the writer
        
        #flancian: fair
        
        #maparent look at at-json
      - ‘this thing in this document at this time’ – [[memento protocol]] for example
        
        “memento protocol over massive wiki”
        
        could map to a git commit in the case of git backed repositories
        
        [[chris aldrich]] could be resolved via internet archive for the web in the general case when that is available
        
        [[maparent]] Actually used by web archive. See http://timetravel.mementoweb.org/about/
      - [[meta]] how do we track of ‘interesting threads’ like that above?
        
        [[peter kaminski]] what about a shared page?
        
        -> AI: create a document/repository location and designate it as first version of this :)
- [[Peter Kaminski]]
  - [[Thinking Tools Map Project]] update
  - [[mathew lowry]] did a fair amount of work
  - some of our project work got out of sync but it’s being merged
  - realization: we had not set up a way to do collaboration beforehand, both platform and convention level
  - -> [[massive wiki channel]] in [[ogm mattermost]]
  - https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/massive-wiki
  - https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/pl/nshenqwxxj8mbq1rptiddut96r
  - collaborating over chat is relatively hard, threading is only basic
  - [[github issues]] and branches
  - maybe a document workflow with comments would be lighterweight?
  - Note: issues in git (vs github) with GitBug
  - Looked again at Markdown parsers (particularly those that can create ASTs, because that’s a sign of development organization and quality)
  - remark + micromark (JavaScript)
  - mistletoe (Python)
  - [[flancian]] the Agora (Python) currently uses [[marko]], but mistletoe looks superior at first glance
  - [[markdoc]] is an extended [[markdown]] syntax created/used by [[stripe]]
  - [[schema]]
  - [[people]] [[tools]] [[techniques]]
  - #map [[goals]] maybe as a separate category, or [[intent]]
  - maybe also [[audience]]
  - -> AI: add to threaded document.
  - Wishing there were typed links in Markdown
  - [[flancian]] in the Agora, links are typed/annotated by the preceding one (or tag)
  - @scalingsynthesis uses prefixes: https://anagora.org/@scalingsynthesis
  - [[chris aldrich]] [[microformats]] could be part of a link
  - #map [[yaml]] blocks could go anywhere?
  - [[supertag]] syntax is growing on him
  - see Gyuri’s work on Trailmarks
  - [[sj]] - I think a good 80% solution for reconciling different types into a single namespace is to support [[TOPIC (qualifier)]], have it rendered while reading as just TOPIC, and have the link to [[TOPIC (qualifier)]] redirect to any of: “TOPIC”, TOPIC (qualifier)", “TOPIC#qualifier” etc. which authority file can be updated by any editor of the markdown network (and may change as people take time to fill out nodes for increasingly specific variations on the topic).
    - very similar to what i came to
- [[flancian]] have been meaning to collect a list of repositories which we would like integrate into a shared construct (agora wink wink) – do you have any?
  - [[peter kaminski]] massive wiki is agnostic w.r.t. versioning and sharing models (or tries to be)
    - for git, [[massive wiki]] can have submodules
    - [[massive wiki builder]] will build
  - do you have note repositories of your own, personal or otherwise?
    - [[peter kaminski]] have one but not currently shareable :)
    - AI: suggest we keep discussing this in future instances
      - [[sister sites]], sister pages
      - twin pages
      - interwiki
      - web rings :)
      - wiki [[collaboration primitives]]
      - Instant wikilinks / cascading wikisheets: implicit interwiki resolution (a la https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/InstantCommons) :: make the local .cws legible so you can see the order in which your current interface looks for matching nodes in choosing the default interwiki
        
        try variation that chooses cascade order based on length/quality of target node
        
        try interface variation that shows top N options in asymmetric list/pie
      - [[fedwiki]] is brilliant but the feeling of the room is that we don’t fully understand it
        
        is there people building any kind of business providing fedwiki widely/easily?
        
        https://byname.wiki.conversence.com
      - sj: update vocab to distinguish meki from wiki
  - #map [[coauthor]] https://coauthor.conversence.com
- Q: [[sj]] how to capture third-party cross-wiki page-name-maps? e.g. say we read together a dozen sources, which are not generally world editable, and are building (in a shared space) interwiki links + merge requests across the set of pages in those sources.
  - [[maparent]] this is what I meant by “glue” earlier, it’s a core [[HyperKnowledge]] goal
AIs
- AI: start a [[tracking document]] for tracking pending interesting threads
  - done -> [[fotl threads]]
- AI: Then let’s do a pass collecting all useful links we already have in this node and in [[fotl]] and move them to [[fotl threads]].
- AI: Let’s move communications over chat for the above projects to the [[fellowship of the link]] channel by default, or share links there to other sources of truth.
- AI: let’s discuss wiki [[collaboration primitives]] and the potential of integrating independent note taking repositories/wikis a la massive wiki / agora
- AI: add schema section to [[fotl threads]]
- AI: upload recording to some well known location :)
  - [[bentley]] suggest putting the raw file in drive first

2022-10-19

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Chris Aldich]] [[Mark-Antoine Parent]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Jack Park]]
First call on [[Wednesday]].
(joined late.)
[[Supermind]]
[[Storyspace]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storyspace
[[Tinderbox]]
- [[Mark Bernstein]] http://www.eastgate.com/garden/Enter.html
[[Classification axis]] for [[tools for thought]]
- [[Peter Kaminski]] -> [[massive wiki]] for this: https://dainty-sable-264aa3.netlify.app/project/project_plan
- [[Mathew Lowry]] is working on the particular dimensions
- [[Marc-Antoine Parent]]'s doc with dimensions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AY6y-uHUQE82zfLgwZLk29VPTaI1P5AMo6HT8zz1WDU/edit
- Previous [[radar chart]]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hY2V5NoSS713R2wzcjBE2q5KZIlfMOPFtL9g6Gaop_o/edit#gid=0
[[Peter Kaminski]] on a tool called Scrintal
[[Jack Park]] [[LiteNet]] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m56SHPGgeFfB_3ToO9-VB9Yu266wtS5-9xlwaFeJ68k/edit
[[Marc-Antoine Parent]]
- [[Fermat]]
- [[Tools for thought rocks]] https://lu.ma/tftrocks-oct22
[[flancian]]
- what could we do with what we already know, even with an incomplete map?
- [[marc antoine]] [[hyperknowledge maps]] https://hyperknowledge.org/HyperKnowledge.mp4
  - we want:
    - [[deep hyperlinks]]
    - deep [[anchoring]] (new, a la [[web annotations]])
    - many to many relationships between anchors and entities
  - [[flancian]] we probably want this second level map for projects that are trying to work on interlinking
  - preconditions:
    - backlinks
    - supple many:many relationships between anchor text and meaning
  - [[agora]]
    - [[interlinking]]
    - [[push]] [[pull]] [[go]]
  - [[maparent]] focusing on the differences:
    - [[deep backlinks]]
  - any single idea will be in millions of contexts, how to keep the graph “readable”
  - attribution/degree of belief
    - surface surprising beliefs, beliefs that could be questioned
  - [[jerry michalski]] deck of patterns for cognitive biases
    - swipe right / swipe left? :)
  - [[jerry michalski]] real world example
    - half of the republicans running now say that the election was stolen
    - should this ideally disqualify them?
    - #map ~ [[maparent]] we want to qualify belief by track record, e.g. the work of [[superforecasters]]
    - distinguish empty claims from testable claims
  - what’s the minimum set of coordinated actions we could take to maximize the chances this great crowdsourcing effort happens?
    - hashtags/wikilinks as one way to coordinate – but might not be enough?
    - [[chris aldrich]] the [[instagram problem]]
    - [[flancian]] the Agora tries to make it so that the community can cross-link oportunistically/share entities and auto link
    - [[maparent]] worried about ambiguity still regardless of whether they are autogenerated or human generated
  - [[chris aldrich]] on the recent controversy in US politics with racially charged comments by politicians
    - #map [[dao]] and [[smart contracts]] – enforced accountability
    - #jm [[lexon]] as a human readable [[dsl]] for contracts
  - #map working on a plan and a prototype for [[hyperknowledge]]
  - [[chris aldrich]] how to push actors towards more precise speech (to counteract Trump’s style of not saying anything but convincing some people he is aligned with them, even in the centre left initially)
  - two kinds of self organization:
    - self organization around a shared goal in a self-selected group
    - coordinated action in a very large scale

2022-10-14

The band is back together! After a while :)
Attending: [[jerry michlski]] [[aram zucker scharff]] [[chris aldrich]] [[flancian]] [[bentley]]
[[jerry michalski]]
- hope to see [[fotl]] be a guiding project for [[rel8]]
[[check ins]] / what are we up to?
- [[flancian]]
  - [[work]]
  - [[flancia]]
    - [[agora]]
      - [[pkg book]] – just got back feedback
        
        [[chris aldrich]]
        
        About the terms of the book: they’re using an academic publishing model, very little benefit for the writers
        
        (Looks like the publisher is https://exapt.press)
        
        Chris is likely dropping out
        
        #jm if you were to create a version of this book that was more interesting, what would it look like?
        
        [[aram]] maybe doctorow-like?
      - [[agora]] 2nd anniversary on ~[[2022-11-15]]
- [[chris aldrich]]
  - interested in [[cosma]]
    - (this led to a very interesting overview of promising tools)
- [[bentley]]
  - list of [[tools for thought]]
  - [[canonical debate lab]]
    - [[debate tools]] ~ [[tools for thought]] in some perspective
- [[jerry michalski]]
  - one week in a conference called [[unfinished]]
    - very interesting Brazilians, including [[Macul]]
    - [[keynote]] [[trust is the only way forward]]
  - [[lithuania]]
  - [[policy keys]] is trying to gamify policy discussions
    - deconstructing arguments into pros and cons
    - [[bottleneck issues]], [[hot issues]]
- [[aram zucker scharff]]
  - mostly real life work since last time :)
  - work in the privacy space; GDPR, Virginia and California privacy regulations. Have been reading lots of documents.
  - spotted an interesting project
  - working on an archival tool for tweets, dealing with the issue that [[an increasing amount of people are deleting old tweets]], and also with styling issues
  - [[flancian]] maybe check out [[nitter]] code
  - wdyt about [[threader]] (app)?
possible time/day of the week for the next call?
- Wed at 10?
  - Aram: 11am better
- Thu?
  -> Mattermost

2022-09-16

Attending: [[jerry michalski]] [[marc antoine]] [[mathew]] [[stacey druss]]
#push [[canonical debate lab]]
- [[maparent]] presents
- [[argument technologies]] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wQShF0J3lGmIFACTvt5FLQWnKc1YdRaaCEDvRJlcUT8/edit?usp=sharing
  - map of [[tools for thinking]]
  - [[airtable]] approach, preferred structured to unstructured
  - knowledge management definition plan
  - [[jerry michalski]]
    - spider diagram
  - [[CI features and goals]] document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AY6y-uHUQE82zfLgwZLk29VPTaI1P5AMo6HT8zz1WDU/edit
    - seven dimensions
    - list of functional features
- [[jerry michalski]] argumentation or debate as a view in an environment that facilitates collection, tagging and eventually policy making
  - grid making / dimensionality of the space we’re exploring
  - [[flancian]] exploring a [[hypergraph]] as the target common data structure / exchange convention?
    - start with no typing, define required typing within the hypergraph (it’s meta)
    - #push [[hyperknowledge]] https://hyperknowledge.org/hyperknowledge-components-1.html
- classification / the meta problem
  - high dimensionality matrix
  - [[mathew]] but who will want to do that kind of work? defining the dimensions, then actually filling in that sort of space
  - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17cnrfNVwh_ETZDbfCIw-XV_t2zmwP2jJHCKUJIY0nGg/edit?usp=sharing
  - [[]]
- [[syntax]] for modeling
  - paraphrasing each other
  - [[flancianization]]
  - [[mathew lowry]] [[change my mind]] analysis, [[change my mind reddit]]
- #ml wdyt about [[you are not so smart]]?
  - [[marc antoine]] loved [[the enigma of reason]] #2017
  - #jm https://bra.in/6qzdab
- [[shared purpose]] as a prerequisite for collective meaning
  - “why do you believe this”
  - [[stacey]] flexibility: it’s important to not have to attach something in precisely the right point
  - also: when you put the arguments in the map, I’m answering an abstract position (represented in the map) that is not necessarily that of a particular person (so it gets defused)
- #jm [[fake lie detector]] in [[the wire]]
  - it might be possible to identify what someone is saying in real time
  - reduce the delay between utterance and fact check
  - live scoring would help
  - #ml [[ministry of truth]] ~ [[map]] as a risk
  - #map [[cdl]]'s plan is to organize claim information; #map wants to provide a sort of [[claim overlay]]
- truth roots
- adversaries, [[drake equation]]
- #push [[canonical debate lab]]
  - [[white paper]] https://github.com/canonical-debate-lab/paper/blob/master/README.mediawiki
  - [[democracy earth foundation]]
- [[forgiveness]]
  - [[building bridges]]
  - #jm [[reconciliation commission]] for companies, [[truth and reconciliation]] process
- [[election fraud]] claims
  - [[stacey druss]] looked into the cases behind the claim, case by case, and found that there were cases were people were being hurt and that we could have helped
- #jm my notes for this call: https://bra.in/3qaEeE
  - https://sfpeace.org/
- #map
  - [[deliberate polling]]
  - [[the enigma of reason]] – when people talk together, we get better results
  - recursive approach, exploit alpha/delta

2022-08-26

Attending:

[[Gene]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Bentley]]
Late: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[mathew lowry]]

Videos

Notes

Introductions!
[[jerry michalski]] ~ #jm
- on previous calls
- on sometimes having overlap in different dimensions but not having shared clarity/understanding
- sharing clarity vs rambling
- happens even at the organizational level when you’re trying to set up a mission statement
  - [[motherhood statements]] ~ “we believe in X”, “we believe in Y” – but we’re usually looking for nuggets of novelty
- [[numenta]]
  - would like to jump into a “digested format”
  - [[prediction framework]]
    - as [[society of mind]]
#push [[Gene]] and [[Jerry Michalski]] go way back
- [[system thinker]] -> [[storyteller]]
- #go https://bra.in/8vGe9q
- married and divorced [[the brain]] multiple times
- uses [[napkin]]
- [[richard maxis]] ~ [[richard macksey]], former Johns Hopkins University professor with a large personal library
- #push [[richard macksey]]
  - [[library background]]
  - https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/34f84a89-4bc2-46f5-ac9b-b3ba8e8bff11/notes
  - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvXUHI331k
  - [[umberto eco]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czc_KjWji8E
  - [[library tours]]
Spider chart example
- reusable ethical services might be a competitive advantage of tools in the [[commons]]
- commercial tools seem to have an advantage in the current market – they get the backing of the market “leads” (VC, etc.) which lets them out-compete freer options
  - uber is not a [[fair marketplace]], yet it outcompeted more ethical alternatives
  - on the [[hypocrisy]] of “fake markets” – platforms that behave like markets but are controlled by a single entity
    - #push [[fake markets]]
      - https://bra.in/8vBe4W
- [[chris aldrich]] ~ #ca if we did [[spider graphs]], how do you select axis to focus on?
  - how do we present this information in a way that prioritizes the ethical aspect, and perhaps helps tool developers prioritize lacking dimensions?
  - #jm selecting dimensions in different contexts
  - #jm finding which tools are missing, which tools are complementary
    - “which tools play well with each other”
  - #ca another thing which is important to people in this space: even though [[obsidian]] is not open source, people find it easy to develop against it and it’s got open source extensions
    - so it seems unlikely they will turn into a new Twitter
    - but even in that case it seems you could move to other players which are more open
- [[bentley]] implemented [[filtering]] in [[spider graphs]] (demo)
- #jm what is [[indieweb]]'s perspective on convincing people to build openly?
  - #ca #push [[indieweb]] they have built a structure on a two prong idea:
    - you own your own domain name
      - [[flancian]] ~ #f what about weakening this into “you own some URL space”
      - #ca it’s possible, but at the end of the day you want to own what a URL resolves to
      - the ecosystem is developing in the direction of letting you redirect between domains
    - you have control over your data
    - #jm what about separating data from apps, e.g. storing on github?
      - as in, you map any new tool to the same existent dataset
      - #ca you can point tools in [[indieweb]] to repositories of data
      - #ca #push [[micropub]] is a spec; a “data plug board” that allows people to easily write apps that publish events to different consumers
        
        #go https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/
        
        a post goes first to your website
        
        then the website has the know how on how to publish to feeds
        
        [[bookmark service]] is the [[hello world]] here
      - [[medium]] could rewrite its backend to support [[micropub]] and it would let you cross post to many other sites
      - #f how does this interact with [[activitypub]]?
        
        #ca it fits in this model but it’s a steeper learning curve
        
        in most of the AP space, if you don’t interop with [[mastodon]], you don’t exist
        
        lots of tools target [[mastodon]] as it supports some core things well
      - [[aram zucker]]
        
        guide to [[activitypub]]: https://tinysubversions.com/notes/reading-activitypub/
      - #push [[fotl agenda]]
        
        the field of [[x clone]] in the [[fediverse]]
        
        no single AP client that supports all features
        
        [[lemmy]] as an interesting example of new platform built on [[activitypub]]
        
        [[goodreads]] functionality
        
        #ca https://indieweb.org/personal_library#Silo_Examples
- back to meta level here?
  - on mapping of the fediverse, of tools?
  - or [[spider charts]]
    - #f [[go/t4t radar]] points to the chart (- and + also work for spaces)
      - which categories do we want here?
      - linking articles to support scores/opinions
      - #f [[assertion feeds]]
      - #jm spreadsheet is easily embeddable to begin with
      - #ml publishing markdown/resources to repositories and sharing that
    - #f [[gardens]] and [[feeds]]? :)
    - #ml can we add domains/repositories to what is searching?
      - #f yes
    - [[aram zucker-scharff]] ~ [[az]]
    - #jm [[noosphere]]
    - #ca most of the big commercial offerings allow people to store data on [[dropbox]] or [[google drive]]
      - [[agora]] could enable people to move from [[dropbox]] to [[git]] based workflows
      - micropub spec ostensibly could be used for moving from platform [[x]] to platform [[y]]
- [[solid]] and [[solid like]]
  - [[mathew lowry]] ~ #ml
  - [[mysilio]] https://github.com/mysilio-co
- [[jerry michalski]] will host a [[podcast]]
  - default topics:
    - [[startups]] to motivate a [[bootcamp]]
    - [[chris aldrich]]
    - who else should we invite?
      - [[anne laure]]
      - [[maggie appleton]]
        
        [[anthropology]] [[history]] background
      - [[andy matuschak]]
      - [[cory doctorow]]
      - #list https://twitter.com/i/lists/1437865198346379264/members
    - [[commons]]
      - [[knowledge commons]]
      - #ml [[global commons]] usually means [[global english commons]], although that can be generalized with AI
      - “[[The Eighth Coalition]]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Days
- #ca [[lukasa]] as materialized [[method of loci]]
  - [[pacific navigators]]
  - [[steam ships]] as bad for lifeboats because people lost knowledge on the working of [[currents]]
  - [[Lifeboat]]: A History of Courage, Cravenness, and Survival at Sea (2003)
  - For more on pacific islanders’ migration: [[Life on the Rim]] (as in Pacific rim)
- #meta #ml let’s set up a [[doodle]]?
- ([[flancian]] dropped here.)
(A copy of the default Agenda goes below)
[[names]] for the project that has already started :)
- [[flancian]] my proposal is, well, you know what I call it :)
  - would love to discuss [[agora protocol]] with you
    - is the heart of the [[Agora]]
    - it is what you and me define it to be :)
    - feedback welcome :)
where are you [[feeds]] and [[gardens]]?
- [[flancian]] note my daily feed shows up as part of https://anagora.org/journals which is an aggregation of daily posts by all users,
- if you tell me about your feeds and gardens I could add them (like everything Agora related, everything is optional always and offered as a token of friendship!)
[[commonplace books]]
[[mathew lowry]] let’s create some distributed map of thinking tools: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/pl/78gprua18frkpc6shrxabricqo
- #jm https://bra.in/5qeDMg
- #jm [[spider charts]]
  - looks like a [[polar chart]]
  - what are the axes? visualization, openness, artificial intelligence, etc.
    ML: also the different notetaking techniques
    CJA: What are the building blocks and affordances they provide so one can have a progressively improved/complex experience
- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hY2V5NoSS713R2wzcjBE2q5KZIlfMOPFtL9g6Gaop_o/edit#gid=0
solving for [[sustainability]] / [[viability]] of a healthy knowledge ecosystem
- funding, donations between readers and writers
- nested conversations, how to solve for:
  - [[communities]]
  - [[startups]] / companies
    - [[jerry michalski]] camp
People we should invite here?

2022-08-19

Attending

[[Flancian]]
[[Chris Aldrich]]
[[Jerry Michalski]]
[[Mathew Lowry]]
[[Dan Whaley]]

Video

Agenda

[[2022-08-19]]: recap of Render Conference for Tools for Thinking https://www.betaworks.com/event/render-tools-for-thinking
- done!

Notes

[[jerry michalski]]
- [[render]] ~ [[tools for thinking]]
[[flancian]]
- great introduction
- great conversation with [[howard rheingold]]
- amazing announcement by [[gordon brander]]: [[noosphere]]
  - it is [[an agora]], done very well!
[[jerry michalski]] welcomes [[dan whaley]]!
- [[dan whaley]]
  - Fridays are much better meeting wise!
  - very busy but
  - [[14 million dollars]] investment from [[ithaka]] and [[jstor]] https://web.hypothes.is/blog/say-hello-to-anno/
- how does this interact with the global [[knowledge commons]]?
  - [[annotations]] -> the knowledge is in the annotation you take
  - but the annotation is layered on preexisting on knowledge
  - it’s about protocols and things but also about seeding [[communities]]
- [[hypothesis]] cares about the user having access to the underlying knowledge
  - regardless of whether it’s because it’s free or they happen to have (exclusive?) access
  - this knowledge could be resolved in a federated network
    - clients using open protocols like [[web annotations]] can participate in this network
  - [[flancian]] how does this relate to [[markets]]?
    - and the fairness of said markets.
    - IMHO [[commons]] should [[embed]] markets
    - [[dan whaley]] the knowledge is what’s “out there” right now, we try to pass no judgment and support the existing models
      - most universities have access to [[json]], but most others don’t
      - the [[nyt]] is not free
        
        paywalls
      - some content might always be gated
      - the world may be moving towards [[free access]] but that will happen on its own terms?
      - [[hypothesis]] thinks there’s a sustainable path for them; charging for institutional usage maybe but making the conversation available to everybody
        
        not doing ads
        
        -> [[reality distortion matrix]]
        
        silos trying to [[monetize attention]]
        
        constructive ways of funding
        
        open [[saas]]
  - [[mathew lowry]] have you watched [[render]] / [[tools for thinking]]
    - [[dan whaley]] not yet!
    - [[mathew lowry]] interesting ai potential exploration
    - what are your thoughts on integrating AI with hypothesis?
      - “here is what your friends think about X in the web” vs “here is what an AI thinks about X in the web”
      - [[dan whaley]]
        
        AI is super interesting as created by humans for humans
        
        a force for good to help us navigate the world more powerfully
        
        but of course there are negative use cases, so we need to set the right incentives
      - [[flancian]]
        
        may not there be a difference in the long term? :)
      - in terms of influencing AI
        
        (… saw something in chat :))
      - mathew: valuable content layered on top of layered content.
        
        -> sentiment analysis and meta sentiment analysis
        
        people benefiting from the AI they train instead of the current status quo
      - [[dan whaley]] very privileged to have access to this data, and to steer a new paradigm
        
        find revenues that can sustain this while being pro social is critical
        
        only will explore what will be beneficial
      - [[jerry michalski]]
        
        [[douglas tomkins]] (sp?) and [[x]] from [[patagonia]]
        
        building land tracts and are trying to turn it into a trust
        
        (!)
        
        is there one ambitious funding project that could be explored for maximum benefit here?
        
        could we fund the [[idea commons]] on some large, ambitious scale?
        
        [[flancian]] using the commons, regulating markets, to disrupt the market for public good
        
        [[dan whaley]] what is the change we want to make?
        
        you could imagine all kinds of things
        
        one idea: how could you incentivize people to make annotations professionally?
        
        meaning high quality “trailblazers”
        
        proposed legislation
        
        pre annotating bills!
        
        what would it take to be able to fund this
        
        concept of [[reddit gold]]
        
        chip in to providing high quality contributions?
        
        fixing the [[newspaper subcription model]]
        
        you put 10 bucks in, it goes to the authors of the things you read
        
        [[jerry michalski]] reinventing [[xanadu]] in a way
        
        [[jerry michalski]]
        
        the large pot of money (a risk in itself, but) can be distributed
        
        [[dan whaley]] it’s a flow
        
        like mycellian nutrients
        
        [[flancian]] meta on the metaphor
        
        [[chris aldrich]] [[redwood trees]] network roots to be able to stand up taller
        
        for most trees, they tend to be mirror images
        
        not so redwoods
        
        [[data trust]]
        
        [[chris aldrich]] how to get good quality data in general
        
        [[twitter]] is already a great repository of annotations in a sense, but you have to sift through a lot more stuff to go to the gems
        
        [[jerry michalski]] [[nugget ratio]] is very high if you curate your follows
        
        [[flancian]] -> the [[social network]] is what encodes the most information
        
        the importance of [[open ranking]], [[open filtering]], [[open algorithms]] -> [[open ais]]
        
        [[jerry michalski]] why are [[tools for conversation]] not [[tools for thinking]]?
        
        the lack of good permalinks in interesting answers in random forums
        
        walled gardens
        
        one of the nice things about hypothes.is is that it’s got a great signal to noise ratio and you can easily link to full contexts
        
        [[indieweb]] is important here
        
        [[mathew lowry]] [[myhub]] is part of [[indieweb]]
        
        on the following relationship
        
        as leading to flows -> (of attention, of funding)
        
        [[flancian]] hypothes.is integrations with [[feeds]]? it already provides feeds, how important they seem to you
        
        [[dan whaley]] we provide feeds but are not currently looking at providing more
        
        focusing on providing arbitrary annotation for arbitrary web resources
        
        [[chris aldrich]] how do you also not aggregate streams only, but how do you turn those feeds into something feedin a [[garden]]
        
        [[how to feed the garden]]
        
        [[robin sloan]] (…) (sp?)
        
        [[mike oldfield]] [[technopastoral]]
        
        #push [[technopastoral]]
        
        https://myhub.ai/items/the-garden-and-the-stream-a-technopastoral-hapgood
        
        https://hapgood.us/2015/10/17/the-garden-and-the-stream-a-technopastoral/
        
        how do you pick out “tweets” and curate them into something?
        
        [[flancian]] -> you start by linking them more
        
        [[wikilinks]]`
        
        [[jerry michalski]]
        
        balance the [[stocks]] and [[flows]]
        
        [[mathew]]
        
        https://medium.com/the-mission/why-you-need-a-personal-content-strategy-ff05c84fccfd
        
        [[gardens, not graves]]
        
        http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-future-of-the-internet-is-flow-1443796858
        
        [[jerry michalski]] the issue with preventing remixes and other limitations on creativity
        
        -> [[everything is a remix]]
        
        [[dan whaley]] whole advertising industry is based and capitalizes on [[flow]]
        
        no ads on [[stocks]]
        
        fresh content mesmerizes us
        
        the fascination of time
        -> [[flancian]] claiming posts/items from a feed and storing them filed, with a human readable permalink, anchors them; brings them out of the [[flow]], makes them [[evergreen]]
        
        [[mathew lowry]] exploring this in the [[pkg chapter]]: how to build a [[pipeline]]
        
        [[flancian]] #do tell [[st]]
        
        transformation is something people could want to pay; new formats for resources
        
        “follow the flow into new stock”
        -> [[flancian]] the advantage of the hub aspect of an integrated system, efficiency
        
        [[dan whaley]] delighted to have been able to meet! hope to be able to continue to participate.
        
        Congratulations!!!
        
        [[mathew lowry]] annotating on annotations, transforming
        
        [[jerry michalski]] writing linked content, sharing using emergent conventions
        
        a path to help and prototype together
        
        [[networked scribing]]
        
        we’re in the early days of cinema, we’re still looking for the [[dolly]]
        
        the web is stuck on web 1 metaphors
        
        corporations hve been trying to centralize and define the asthetics and the ethics of the system
        
        [[chris aldrich]] song lines from indiginal (sp?) cultures
        
        they inform who we are today, but we mostly ignore this
        
        a space in this new space to bring us closer to the spoken word and new ways of communicating
        
        the web becoming more visual / photo centric anyway
        
        what about the music, the dance, the art
        -> [[flancian]] [[bolo bolo]]
        
        [[dan whaley]] agree with this
        
        [[i annotate]] talk on the future of note taking
        
        [[ward cunningham]] was there
        
        folks from [[logseq]] were there
        
        [[dan whaley]] developed [[docdrop]] to annotate youtube videos
        
        [[dan whaley]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GThr77PbJ4w -> https://docdrop.org/video/GThr77PbJ4w/
        
        [[flancian]] [[agora]] the right spirit, not the right software yet :)
        
        [[ward cunningham]] [[fedwiki]]
        
        [[roam]] et al is very proprietary
        
        the opportunity is fully distributed, they don’t seem to get it
        
        [[mathew]] reminds me of the twitter missed opportunity 10 years ago
        
        [[obsidian]] could be nudged in the right direction
“we’re trying to start a project”
- what if we already started it? see agenda for next time :)
- [[jerry michalski]] ~ #jm
  - registered [[the big fungus]]
- [[flancian]] you know what I’m going to propose :)
- [[chris aldrich]] [[commonplace books]]
  - #jm were they only personal or also social objects?
  - people would keep their own commonplace book and go in the will to someone else
  - [[the book nobody read]] about [[copernicus]] and [[revolutions]]
    - [[flancian]] -> [[david deutsch]]
    - [[student notes]] passing through the ages
    - [[marginalia]]
    - [[torah]] annotations
  - [[scrapbook]] flipped in meaning
    - [[commonplace books]]
- [[jerry michalski]]
  - [[spider charts]]
  - [[chris aldrich]] data visualization/rendering services
    - [[flancian]] in a federated network
  - [[mathew lowry]] identifying complementary tools

Agenda

Tools for Thinking Recap https://www.betaworks.com/event/render-tools-for-thinking
- https://etherpad.indieweb.org/ToolsForThinking
- Jess Martin’s notes: https://jessmart.in/articles/render-recap
[[flancian]]
- where are you [[feeds]]?
- mine is in https://anagora.org/journals which is an aggregation of daily posts by all users, if you tell me about your feeds I could add them there (like everything Agora related, everything is optional always and offered as a token of friendship!)
- [[agora protocol]] -> moved to next week
  - is the heart of the [[Agora]]
  - it is what you and me define it to be :)
  - I have bootstrapped it to be markdown plus wikilinks, wikilinks being descriptions of entities in a free knowledge graph as common [[language]]
  - feedback welcome :)

2022-08-11

Attending

[[Jerry Michalski]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]

Video

today’s FoTL call is up, Unlisted:
https://youtu.be/fBOfMKtBpss and
https://youtu.be/i0Tty7TIaWI

Notes

Jerry’s brain for this session: https://bra.in/6p63ZP

[[betaworks]] conference: https://www.betaworks.com/event/render-tools-for-thinking
[[Mathew Lowry]]
- WordPress plugin to syndicate news orgs from multiple sites of different languages
- Would be useful to give publishers more to cite and a better understanding
- A type of shared memory
- Hard to get journalists to adopt the tool
- A bunch of different organizations sharing the tools for mutral benifit.
- From Mattermost - https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/pl/gbonf7z177yquffqz59mu8uino :
  - The basic idea was to create CMS plug-ins for newsrooms which would allow journalists in different participating newsrooms to access each other’s content, both published and otherwise (ie, drafts, notes, etc.), via their CMS. The participating newsrooms essentially become a sort of decentralised press agency. This is particularly interesting in Europe, where every newsroom cannot have a journalist in every country. Hence the system would incorporate machine translation, autocategorisation and autosummary. Obviously, every time newsroom A used newsroom B’s content - ie A translated and republished B’s article into their own language for their own audience - newsroom B would earn credit. And every time B used A’s, they would spend that credit.
  - This is a very specific use case, with a business model, for decentralised sharing. And the social benefit is real, because it would set up a decentralised alternative to the big press agencies and allow stories which they will never pick up to travel across borders and find new audiences.
[[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
- https://restofworld.org/
- Old version of [[Zemanta]]
  - A blog post “enhanced” by Zemanta https://hacktext.com/2011/02/what-is-a-text-and-how-do-i-hack-it-521/
  - https://static.packt-cdn.com/products/9781849511407/graphics/1407_02_15.jpg
  - Eventually purchased by Outbrain and killed
- https://www.distributedmedialab.com/publishers
Potential space for this [[WordCamp for Publishers]] https://twitter.com/wcpublishers/
- Great event, highly recommend! - Aram
There’s the https://knightlab.northwestern.edu/projects/ that is really great.
Chris
- The NYT has a digital archive team of about 3
- Photos are not fully backed up there
- 2 decades of working on the problem and not everything is backed up.
Mathew
- The European Commission relies on the Internet Archive for websites they no longer wish to maintain.
Jerry
- YouTube has its own storage problems stuff is not well archived. It is remarkable that they even capture what they can.
- The future digital anthropoligsts what will they find?
Aram
- Archiving should be something anyone can do and have on their own site
- Just like POSSE there should also be link once and archive yourself
- These systems should be able to talk to each other and share and replicate their resources
Jerry
- How does this survive though? My hard drives don’t survive me
Chris
- We have this problem with music - we saw how a lot of that music got lost.
- Tip of the iceburg - so much history is lost
- music notation didn’t exist in printed forms until about 11th century
Jerry
- In Small Things Forgotten
- Gravestones are very useful for history. Also potery.
- Tiny differences in gravestones over time are fashion trends that are time indicators.
Aram
- I think in terms of preservation we can look at Activity Pub. When you federate with another server it pulls and replicates and distrubutes stuff. It would be great if we could get that done with archives.
- Open sourcing is good as well
Mathew
- If you link to something you automatically make a backup is a good idea
- What does this have to do with content sharing?
  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content-addressable_storage
  - http://open-content.net/caw
  - One peice of content can be shared out replicated and shares an address across many locations.
Smallest Federated Wiki
IPFS but pinning is an issue.
Collective intellegence - what that means for spread and maintenance
Songlines Are the Original Blockchain - https://bra.in/5jQYgm
Jerry
- A lot of ways of remembering were intentionally destroyed by colonization
- [[Songlines]] are an example of that
- but it turns out that these ways of handling it are important.
- Local populations carefully crafting things and being overwritten by colonization.
The Biggest Estate on Earth: How the Aborigines Made Australia (2011)
Chris
- [[David Christian]] on [[collective intelligence]]: The beginning of collective knowledge and intellegence as the marker for the beginning of human history.
Jerry
- Christian talked about how there are not hooks in the work to be able to pull his data out of his finished thesis.
- Humans are really good at killing themselves off and then passed down the ways they learned not to.
How practices spread and disceminate?
We overvalue the written world - Jerry.
Mathew
- An overvalue of memorization
- Greeks overvalued it and that was the end point of oral learning.
What does a non-literary method look like here?
Aram:
- Queens Memory - Podcasts as a method of oral history
- Memes and emoji as inconographic languages
Jerry
- There are others as well like NPR’s project here that do podcasts for oral histories
- [[The Alphabet Versus the Goddess: The Conflict Between Word and Image]] (1998)
Aram
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis
Chris
- Interesting project to ‘write’ coreography in a way that isn’t the standard way of transmitting coreography
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_notation
- Different ways to lay out colors an images to annotate video - how could you have a recorded record that could be used to recreate a movie from the notes.
Graphic facilitators
Mathew
- volcano model for desktop information - starts in the center and slowly flows towards the sides until it falls off the desktop.
Aram
- Reminds me of 3d desktops
Jerry
- [[Songlines]] on the desktop
- Grapiphic facilitation at conferences
- Point back at stuff that was written on the wall from a previous day.
- What would The Brain look like as the file system for an operating system.
- synecure
Aram
- Archiving as a regular personal practice
Chris
- References of people who value their knowledge so they protect against it being lost to history.
  - These bound books over here with all my notes take them out of the house
Jerry
- Tools for thinking - https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/4bfe6526-9884-4b6d-9548-23659da7811e/
https://scalingsynthesis.com/
Scaling Synthesis - Multiplayer TFT https://lu.ma/9a21amd7 from 2022-08-09 video should be available shortly from [[Boris Mann]] et al.
Should we write a database of these things or should we poll people and publish interviews? What tools do people recommend?
- Good example: https://indieweb.org/commonplace_book
- Would be good to hear from people:
  - I have this practice
  - this is how I use it
  - this is what it looks like
  - and this is how I turn it into outputs?
- Looking at how people use their information graphs and how they visualize information
- It would be really valuable to me to know if I want a good graph this is what it looks like
- Why isn’t there more documentation of these tools and how could it lead to interoperability
Chris
- Even the history of the tree space isn’t as well known or broadly distributed…
- Lima, Manuel. [[The Book of Trees]]: Visualizing Branches of Knowledge, 2014.
  - https://papress.com/products/the-book-of-trees-visualizing-branches-of-knowledge
  - Jerry: in my brain - https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/cff5e4d0-94af-70a0-d710-d324cbdd55e6/
Jerry
- Could we have a [[pattern language]] for this?
  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language
- Ex: Light from Two Walls can become a shorthand for talking about loose rules that trigger understand and contextualization.
- Ex: [[1 2 4 all]]
  - Jerry write up of instrumenting
Mathew
- Is there a syntax or thesouras for pattern languages
Jerry
- Patern Languages of Pattern Languages
  - https://www.hillside.net/plop/2022/
- Chatbots maybe a solution?
  - Hey I’m intersted in Starting with Tools for Thinking
Aram
- Maybe just a question and answer page?
Jerry
- And then you could feed it into a Chat Bot
Mathew
- How do we help people find the right tool for them
- How do we help people find the right pattern langugage for them.
Aram
- It seem swe have to interview people first and get them to talk us through it.
- Do we need a questionaire?
Jerry
- a smorgasbord of thinking tool users’ preferences
- There is some skill required to pull people out of their over-complexity.
questionnaire for thinking tool users?
- What are you using this tool for and why?
- What did you wish your tool suite did?
- In the note taking space a lot of people don’t think out the longg term value
- Creating one or two notes a day over a year before the big affordances become obvious
- what is the long term value of your tool suite and process?
- create a 3 minute video of your most typical use case
  - UX Studies Practice here ?
    - Narrate yourself through the proceess and what you are thinking
Chris
- Very few people get to the 3 or 4 month mark where they see pay off from notetaking.
- Not many people are writing about it as a benefit either.
Mathew
- We need to use the 5 why technique - we need to ask why a lot
- Not everyone wants to use notes for creation, some are just collectors.
Chris
- Some people have collect a lot of stuff as the only goal and then the assumption is that [[note taking magic]] happens, but that isn’t really the case.
People find a system and then want to sell it and that can be a problem
- [[GTD]] aka [[getting things done]] is an example here
- [[nick milo]] and [[linking your thinking]] https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/
[[Memory]] and [[major system]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system as a historical example of people selling intellectual systems or frameworks. This is playing itself out again with note taking tools.
https://boffosocko.com/2022/06/10/reframing-and-simplifying-the-idea-of-how-to-keep-a-zettelkasten/
Critiques of Learning Styles https://bra.in/2q5oKV
[[design from trust]] designfromtrust.com
- Universal Benefit

2022-08-04

Agenda

Shared memory / collective learning
- [[collective knowledge]] [[shared knowledge]]
how the agora has an advantage over platforms (Flancian)
- [[wikilinks everywhere]] <-> [[hashtags everywhere]]
- [[adversarial interoperability]]
- -> AI(flancian): post about this in [[ogm]]
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] do the simplest thing that can possibly work sounds good
- AI(flancian): let’s invite [[dan whaley]] here again?
[[meta]] how to have a more structured agenda

Attending

[[Jerry Michalski]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]]

Notes

[[Jerry Michalski]]
- [[betaworks]] render event next week about [[tools for thought]] [[2022-08-16]]
  - [[nyc]]
  - https://render.betaworks.com/thinkcamp-a-betaworks-accelerator-program-for-tools-for-thinking-de7e18bf5682
- how to get a [[posse]] working together
- [[chorus of voices]]
[[internet slowness]]
- [[van jacobson]]
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Jacobson_TCP/IP_Header_Compression
on [[conventions]]
- [[lower caps]] vs [[initial caps]]
  - eventual fixup
  - eventual convergence :)
- inclusivity aspect of it: be liberal w.r.t. what you take
- [[Mathew Lowry]] myhub does the same, lowercase by default everywhere. Based on my (poor) experience with Roam.
- arguments for/against
  - [[lower caps]]
  - [[initial caps]]
    - more readable
    - the cost of writing caps is helped by tools like [[obsidian]] auto completing links once you type [[
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] about unicode coalescing (there’s a better word for this) in both directions, pros and cons
    - (…)
    - very used to writing in caps anyway
    - ex: platforms like instagram show how people “exploit” hashtags by using many similar ones to have greater reach
    - a platform could actually coalesce hashtags
      - [[triangle thinking]] ~ [[combinatorial creativity]]
[[Jerry Michalski]] operationalizing communal note taking in preparation for [[betaworks]]
- how do you do note taking?
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] almost on git but not currently
    - most of the public stuff starts in [[hypothes.is]]
    - notes in hypothes.is have permalinks
      - actually have two URLs:
        
        one for the page/resource you annotated followed by a trigger for hypothes.is to open and show the annotation in context
        
        one in the hypothes.is domain which refers to the actual annotation proper
        
        “[[js;dr]] problem”
      - [[Jerry Michalski]]
        
        you can share a highlight to a passage using the current #… convention
      - https://indieweb.org/media_fragment (thanks!)
      - https://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/
      - hypothes.is reads the tags and uses it for presenting annotations/highlights
      - https://www.w3.org/annotation/
      - https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-vocab/
      - Research on various annotation implementations created by Hypothes.is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f86L7vgHUW9wSLNNSunhjmtxtg6KlCOVpHGKbqUzW-Y/edit#gid=0
[[jerry michalski]] on
- #push [[how people think]]
  - https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/think/
- how could we bridge these numbered 1 … 17 aspects with:
  - notes about the same in other note taking systems
  - hypothes.is annotations on those sections
- [[mathew lowry]] which level of granularity do you use for your notes? resource/concept/etc.
  - how to map one to the other?
  - [[jerry michalski]] call this the [[nugget problem]]
  - [[chris aldrich]] [[nugget size]] vs [[zoom levels]]
  - [[jerry michalski]]
    - [[ted nelson]]
      - [[stretch text]] ~ [[StretchText]] (1967)
      - [[hypertext fiction]]
      - AI(flancian): tell [[armengol]] about this, he was working on something related.
    - Q: is there typing in [[thebrain]] or some other way to distinguish nuggets from e.g. full resources?
      - it could encode this but the way Jerry uses it loses this information
      - Jerry does not use some features just because they slow him down / they take a lot of time
      - [[Mark Trexler]] uses more of these features and is a [[climate change]] expert.
    - [[chris aldrich]] the labels/wikilinks that you used for these are unlikely to be the same other people use.
      - (but once these are known to all be in a particular resource…)
      - [[google search]] including fragment lookup in search results in some sites
        
        engineering focused solution
      - (on striping tracking data from URLs)
      - [[building blocks]]
        
        if it’s online, there’a permalink to it somewhere; that’s a starting point
        
        [[media fragments]] to dig into text, video, audio
    - [[rel8 pioneers]]
      - where to [[meet]] in this notion of [[idea sex]]?
        
        [[schelling point]]
        
        where would we go in the internet if we couldn’t pass information about the place?
      - which places, which formats?
      - [[chris aldrich]] [[permalinks]] and [[wikilinks everywhere]]
        
        negotiating equivalence between wikilinks in different repositories
        
        -> [[agora]]
        
        [[peter hagen]]
        
        #push [[lindy annotations]]
        
        https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
        
        #push [[crowdwise]]
        
        https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/crowdwise/hogoebkpcnajkkjdidfhojkljppfalip
        
        personal [[agoras]]
        
        providing entity resolution, entity coalescing, annotations
        
        a context in which to resolve wikilinks to permalinks
        
        [[optimistic linking]]
        
        wishful thinking with dangling links
        
        [[mathew lowry]]
        
        fedwiki for working on convergent links/pages
        
        [[chris aldrich]] creating [[red links]] (in wiki terms), it would be nice to be able to get resolution paths whenever one is clicked (resolve this in X, Y or Z)
        
        [[jerry michalski]] the autocomplete in obsidian could be extended to resolve in expanding circles
        
        #push [[patterns]]
        
        #127 [[intimacy gradient]]
        
        [[mathew lowry]] “a tool that lets me curate my content according to my social network” would be super powerful
        
        [[chris aldrich]] [[google plus circles]]
        
        how to incentivize a company into a non profit motive, or a low profit motive, so they can be trusted
        
        [[bonfire]] https://bonfirenetworks.org/
        
        #push [[agora]]
        
        is about [[resolving]] with [[trust]]
      - [[ai]] ~ [[artificial intelligence]]
        
        communities building corpora
        
        [[mathew lowry]] and setting up a [[dao]] to steer resulting models
        
        or [[disco]]
      - [[jerry michalski]]
        
        tweets if they were connected more tightly with the internet
        
        they could embed anchor data / use a mechanism like hypothes.is
      - [[chris aldrich]] https://twitter.com/search?q=filter%3Afollows -filter%3Areplies&src=typed_query&f=live
        
        AI(flancian): add it to the Agora as one of the search “providers” :)
        
        [[mellow twitter]] https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=filter%3Afollows -filter%3Aretweets -filter%3Areplies -filter%3Alinks&src=typd
next actions for [[betaworks]] conference
- -> [[fotl mattermost chat]]
- [[mathew lowry]] which visual language do you envision here?
- [[jerry michalski]]
  - in this private language:
    - [[caret]] ~ [[>]] means incorporate into brain
    - cloud means private
  - but there’s many views that make sense for different context, different people
  - the all singing, all dancing platform lets you choose your own view based on what you need and shift between them
  - how to solve this?
    - [[flancian]] assume it will work and then make it work :)
      - gather resources of many different types/mental models, all about the same entity/event/thing
      - then try to make them coalesce and translate between each other
    - [[chris aldrich]] solving the general problem is hard, start with subproblems
      - (someone who solved a related problem)
    - [[jerry michalski]] [[unix model]]
      - composability
      - separate data from (apps?)
- [[john borthwick]]
  - [[commons culture]] / [[startup culture]]
  - [[civilizational commons]]
  - [[chris aldrich]] it would help to offer a wiki and tools for thought introduction/historical context
    - -> [[rel8 tiles]] ~ https://wiki.rel8.dev/tiles
    - (built on [[massive wiki]] which is git based) -> https://github.com/OpenGlobalMind/rel8-wiki
- “in a breakfast of ham and eggs, the chicken is [[involved]], the pig is [[committed]].”
  - building lightweight [[bridges]] between tools.

2022-07-28

Attending

[[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[David Weinberger]] [[Mathew Lowry]]

Video

https://youtu.be/aLZ9a70lw2g

Notes

Jerry’s brainf for this meeting: https://bra.in/7j3ewE

[[Anagora]] shared notes
#push [[Commonplace books]]
- Passed down
- Example: [[Erasmus Darwin]]'s was left to his family. [[Charles Darwin]] used it and passed it down; it’s now in a library
- Easier to do now on the web while active, harder to preserve
  - https://indieweb.org/longevity
[[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
- Context.center
  - Timelines at work - I find timelines to be really useful on understanding and progressing things and finding pattersn and understanding causes.
- Logging git work and developing in public to make reference easier.
  - [[Paul Frazee]] - works on [[Beaker]] and other [[Hyper]] projects.
    - Really cool logging of code work linked with live streaming - https://paulfrazee.medium.com/building-in-the-open-70ac9dccf1aa
  - fightwithtools.dev - stream of thought developer notes linked to git commits (still in progress). Trying to make my work more approachable.
[[Mathew Lowry]]: What about [[Spaced Repetition]]
- [[mnemonic medium]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]]: https://app.thebrain.com/brains/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/thoughts/6900f8c3-d117-94dc-4996-39241bd989e0/
- Chris Aldrich: Piotr Woźniak
- [[mnemonic reading]]
- [[Anki]] https://apps.ankiweb.net/
- Duolingo
- A useful version of this is active notetaking while reading articles - perhaps combined
  - Refrence to Genius and other web highlighting/note-taking layers that exist
- [[Soren Bjornstad]] formerly of Anki and now at Remnote has lots of work on spaced repetition https://www.sorenbjornstad.com/writing/
- [[David Weinberger]] [[automated summarization]] could play a role here?
- [[Mathew Lowry]]: Something I want to add to MyHub
  - Imagine you are creating another piece of content in the same zone - remember you asked this question to yourself 5 months ago?
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]: Recently worked on a timeline learning tool - where you get a package of articles in a timeline and it tracks your reading of each article. I wonder if it works with the automated summization content to create learning cards?
- [[Mathew Lowery]]: It might be interesting to see about giving people different orders of articles than just date saved, that they store so they can build narratives out of those cards.
- [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]: You can pull date from metadata btw. Also: Narrative creation by ordering cards is really interesting. One example of this is Will Wright’s tool for Current TV - https://hacktext.com/2011/02/crowd-sourced-television-goes-to-the-next-level-with-bar-karma-and-storymaker-477/
- [[Jerry Michalski]]: Founder of https://redforester.com/ is working on something similar that takes elements and can organize them in different ways. I recommended animation to different forks.
- [[Chris Aldrich]]: Taking notes then reviewing them - asking yourself a question that forces you to produce an answer is a far better method of review that simply re-reading material. Example: [[Cornell Notes]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_Notes
- [[Jerry Michalski]]: Five Rs of Note Taking:
  - Recite
  - Record
  - Reduce
  - Reflect
  - Review
- [[Mathew Lowery]]: Do you have a set of pre-generated questions that you can slot specific things into or is it more freeform? (To Chris)
- [[Chris Aldrich]]: [[Cloze]] process where, when you are writing it/taking up the notes you use brackets that mean you are already writing the card.
  - Have to make sure the questions are not too open ended.
  - Usually one or two sentences with only a few things missing.
  - I use it very sparingly because I have other methods I prefer to [[Spaced Repetition]]
  - Actively linking notes also helps a great deal.
- book: Memory Craft: Improve Your Memory with the Most Powerful Methods in History (2019) by [[Lynne Kelly]]
[[Jerry Michalski]] AR projects seem to lack informational, helper, curational stuff.
Useful concept memory palaces: loci
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci
[[David Weinberger]]
- background in philosophy
- for past 30 years writing about the ways in which technology effects the ways we think about things. Focused on Machine Learning for the past 5 years.
- Working at Google on Ethics and AI
[[David Weinberger]] - Writing Notes Process
- Hobbyist programmer
- Wrote app that lets me take notes in plain old [[ascii]] (text)
- bibliographic info at top
  - page number, note and tag
- took notes on a ton of info that way
- then built an app that let me shunt it all into databases
- Went back to Zotero yesterday
  - Couldn’t get it to work and it doesn’t work the way I want it to.
- yes
[[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
- I liked [[Endnote]] when someone else was paying for it.
- [[Zotero]] is great, not for me really because I’m no longer an academic, but lots of great ways to plug in to it to make it for me.
- For arguing on the web, that’s what I use context.center for.
[[Chris Aldrich]]:
- Mendeley seems to be shutting down
- Zotero is useful for annotating PDFs and now does export of notes from .pdfs as of version 6.0
[[Jerry Michalski]] big charts and zooming in and out of them is one of the problems we need to take on.
[[Mathew Lowry]]
- [[Harvard Growth Lab]] has an amazing infographic about economics
  - https://growthlab.cid.harvard.edu/
Reminds me of - https://github.com/Quartz/Chartbuilder
[[Cesar Hidalgo]] - https://centerforcollectivelearning.org/
What do we take on next? Agenda for next week:
- How to explain the shared memory concept?
- A lot of different answers.
- Maybe understanding what the technical format is for a “memory” so it can be shared effectively.
Where are the YouTube listings of our calls?
- In Jerry’s brain
- In the Mattermost chat

Action items / #TODO

invite others
- who?
- if we write it down in a canonical place we can distribute this (useful, social) work
set up cross-review?
- [[flancian]] would be willing and glad to review other people’s writing, perhaps we could do this as a group?
  - full disclosure: I’m also writing a chapter :)
  - Always glad to read and make suggestions! - [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
What else might we publish? Potentially on the site
[[let’s share notes]]
- start integrating pattern languages
  - build a [[meta pattern language]]

11:31 Aram Zucker-Scharff:Trophy

2022-07-21

Attending:

[[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[flancian]] (who says: thank you so much for taking notes last time!!!) [[Mathew Lowry]]

Video

July 21, in 2 parts:

Notes

Jerry’s Notes on this session: https://bra.in/8vm4JJ

The book Mathew is working on: https://personalknowledgegraphs.com/#/page/Personal Knowledge Graphs
- working with [[wireframes]]
[[Chris Aldrich]]
- [[punch cards]]
- [[beatrice webb]] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Webb
- [[niklas luhmann]] was born the year after she published
- [[conrad gessner]]
  - [[flancian]] likely the namesake for [[gessnerallee]], and I didn’t know him!
- [[ramon llull]]
  - the [[catalan]]
- [[herman hollerith]]
- [[roland barthes]] (look into previous week’s notes)
- [[aristotle]]
  - influenced the [[great chain of being]]
- [[sky woman]] vs [[adam and eve]]
- [[doughnut economics]]
  - [[flancian]] [[ontoshift]] in [[free, fair and alive]]
  - [[aram zucker-scharff]] reported on economics back in the day
    - “[[economics]] is more [[sociology]] than it is [[mathematics]]”
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] there’s interesting work in [[complexity economics]] that goes beyond [[clockwork models]]
      - [[santa fe institute]]
        
        [[cognitive artifacts]]
[[Jerry Michalski]] is an [[economics undergrad]]
- taking [[pattern languages]] and [[extending]] them and [[integrating]] them
- [[open source pattern language]] of [[re(generative) commons]]
- how to share notes with each other, into myhub, agora and other platforms?
https://anagora.org/node/ontoshift
Formats and protocols to exchange and connect knowledge
- [[flancian]] thinks of Anagora as a reference implementation of [[agora protocol]], which is this protocol
- What are the standard objects that move back and forth on this protocol? What is the shapes and how can they enable information exchange and connection?
  - Does this connect with ActivityPub? Could we send objects and federate “brains” in this way?
- A schema for everything(?) https://schema.org/
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- #push [[rel8]]
  - https://wiki.rel8.dev/rel8_pioneers
[[Mathew Lowry]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] asked for examples of model [[zettelkasten]] outputs
  - hasn’t gotten many :)
  - #push [[zettelkasten]]
    - [[model examples of zettelkasten output processes]] https://boffosocko.com/2022/07/12/call-for-model-examples-of-zettelkasten-output-processes/
    - conceptualization: we can all take small notes, interlink them ([[Jerry Michalski]] calls them [[nuggets]])
      - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[nuggets, narratives and points of view]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmId2x6JSQE&feature=related
    - how can I pull up 2, 3 nodes that bring up a certain number of text blocks that can then be assembled into long form text or some other format that is fit for consumption by others?
      - linear version is one output format, likely the most useful one
      - interactive experience as an alternative?
      - closest UI that exists might be [[devonthink]]
      - [[Mathew Lowry]] akin to what script writers assemble
        
        [[aram]] that is called [[murder board]] / [[scrub down]]
        
        [[Chris Aldrich]] [[anacapa]] charts / [[anacapa charts]]
- #push [[zettelkasten]]
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] question about [[zettelkasten]]
    - why would the numbering system be useful nowadays?
      - unclear
    - is the fandom in a [[blind alley]] because of the focus on form?
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[zettelkasten origin myth]]
  - [[aram zucker-scharff]] confusion of technique with presentation layer
    - [[trello]] is inspired by [[getting things done]]
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] the ability to reuse what you’ve already written is key to every productive academic; the means of doing this is critical to productivity
    - [[luhmann]] kept changing, improving his technique
going back to the [[flatten]] problem (going from n notes to a long form text)
- [[flancian]] two possible approaches
  - define a [[dsl]] for flattening/assembling (transclusion helps; pull, push in the Agora goes in this direction)
  - train and use large language models with notes being part of prompts
- [[dimensionality problem]]
  - [[planarity]] as first target when processing a high dimensional graph
  - then [[linearity]] closer to text?
- [[Jerry Michalski]] the [[zoom problem]]: information does not make sense at all distances
  - [[the brain]] always seems to work for [[jerry]] in this sense
  - adding [[clusters]] to link existing nodes is critical for keeping it manageable
  - [[yellow]] means cluster
    - [[types]]
  - [[purple]] means opinion
    - [[enumerated wisdom]]
    - [[cialdini’s six principles]]

2022-07-14

Attending:

[[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Marshall Kirkpatrick]] [[Timur Ismaligov]]

Video

https://youtu.be/OlIxzH23ee0

Notes

Jerry’s Brain for this session: https://bra.in/5p7LJJ
Flancian had family conflict and couldn’t attend
[[Marshall Kirkpatrick]]
- First attendance here, though only for a portion of the call
- working on a climate justice news aggregator
General discussions about archives and miscellaneous topics
Jerry and Chris stayed late to talk about note taking related topics.
Flow Immersive Tricast is the app that Jerry uses to put his face into a small highlight while he shares his screen

Chat log

Jerry Michalski: our real chat is over here: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link

11:13 Aram Zucker-Scharff: Here’s the link to that - W3C group on sustainability

11:20 Jerry Michalski:https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryankspangler/ ?

2021-07-07

Attending:

[[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[flancian]] [[aram zucker-scharff]] [[Mathew Lowry]] [[bouncepaw]]

Video

In 2 pieces. here’s segment one https://youtu.be/41bA7oHG__c and two https://youtu.be/n1hS6sADgaw
with my Brain notes here: https://bra.in/8px4ZK

Notes

Where to track a recurring agenda/our goals?
- [[Jerry Michalski]] https://wiki.rel8.dev
- [[Chris Aldrich]] something that has worked for indieweb is having people who join show a token of interest; e.g. try to improve something for someone
  - i.e. we can talk all day, but improvements to real systems are what we should be shooting towards
  - we could focus here on integrating systems that already exist (the ones we’re building or fostering individually) as a group
- [[flancian]] let’s try to spot patterns (…)
[[aram zucker-scharff]]
- works for the [[The Washington Post]]
- developed [[pressforward]], a tool for [[wordpress]]- http://pressforward.org/
- building easy to use websites, archives – in a way that allows them to interact with each other
- Aram on the Fediverse
- interested in solving [[misinformation]] and [[archival]]
- for note taking, [[markdown]] on [[git]]
  - [[flancian]] https://anagora.org
[[fellowship of the link]], a crowdsourced introduction :)
- [[zettelkasten]], [[commonplace books]], [[tools for thought]], [[personal knowledge graphs]], [[interlays]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] lots of projects in this space are trying to sell something; but we care most about the [[commons]]
- how do we take idea capturing and generating and link them into a healthy [[knowledge commons]]?
[[logseq]] model as it relates to the commons
- taking VC money seems slightly worrying as they’ll want to be repayed
- https://boffosocko.com/2022/07/05/economic-models-in-social-media-and-a-better-way-forward/
- [[logseq]] looks close to [[obsidian]]
  - do we have enough variety of approaches?
- paying for services is fine
[[you need a wiki]]
[[agenda]]
- #push [[rel8]]
  - https://wiki.rel8.dev
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[rel8 pioneers]]
- [[flancian]] let’s all push our projects onto a shared space and talk by default about interlinking and integrating them?
- [[Chris Aldrich]] let’s start a list of resources and repositories?
  - this may help to bootstrap a [[commons]]
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[mycelium]]
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- [[liberating voices pattern language]]
  - [[1 2 4 all]] ~ [[one two four all]]
[[bouncepaw]]
- [[mycorrhiza]]
- [[hypha]]
[[flancian]] let’s build an [[agora]]? :)
- this seems to be what we’re trying to achieve this, regardless of the name?
let’s bring to the next meeting – a list of:
- [[repositories]]
- [[tools]]
- [[projects]]
- (that we want to integrate/cross reference/discuss)
[[affordances]]
- [[wikilinks]] and [[metadata]] as key to the [[commons]]
[[meta]] about chat
- let’s prefer the [[mattermost]] to [[jitsi chat]]
[[Jerry Michalski]] what’s the difference between [[indieweb]] vs [[fediverse]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] [[fediverse]] is a subset of [[indieweb]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] [[indieweb]] is based around the notion of having your own website and building your identity around it
- [[Chris Aldrich]] [[fediverse]] is based around the notion of your identity being hosted in an instance like [[mastodon.social]]
Let’s discuss what we wrote to [[rel8]], our lists of:
- [[repositories]]
- [[tools]]
- [[projects]]
- (that we want to integrate/cross reference/discuss)
People who need access to the repo (github usernames):
- flancian
- aramzs
- bouncepaw
- chrisaldrich
- mathewlowry
Let’s talk about [[search engines]]
- https://warmedal.se/~bjorn/posts/2022-07-02-projviding-meaningful-search-results-without-own-index.html
- [[queries as addresses]]
Phone service vs Internet service analogy: https://boffosocko.com/2022/07/05/economic-models-in-social-media-and-a-better-way-forward/
Let’s onboard everybody to the [[fediverse]]!
- [[mastodon]] app is actually good to bootstrap/choose an instance
Dump your ActivityPub IDs here ;)
- @flancian@social.coop
- @chrisaldrich@boffosocko.com
- @bouncepaw@lor.sh
What do we see as our long term goal?
- [[flancian]] let’s integrate repositories and tools and write [[science fiction]] together :) how could our tools, platforms, the internet, the world at large look like by [[2025]], [[2030]]?
- [[Mathew Lowry]] is focusing on producing the [[pkg book]] chapter and would love to do research and writing in this space
- [[Jerry Michalski]] would like to participate in exploration and prototyping; illustrate and broadcast interesting ideas for others to pick up; analyze what it will take to deliver this by the next decade; organize activities
- [[Chris Aldrich]] appreciate the idea of [[shared wikis]] that can communicate back and forth with each other
  - [[flancian]] we should invite [[ward cunningham]]!
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] history of the medium
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[songlines: the power and promise]]
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[third archive]]

2022-06-30

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[diego de la hera]] [[flancian]]

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8pkNRRncTc

Notes

[[Jerry Michalski]]
- #push [[rel8]]
  - #go https://www.rel8.dev
    - (a [[google site]])
    - https://www.rel8.dev/wiki is embedded above
  - “relating ideas, documents, perspectives and people”
- (Jerry is using [[obsidian]] plus [[obsidian sync]] for this)
- [[short term]], [[medium term]] and [[long term]] goals for [[rel8]]
- [[short term]]
  - define: how do we share notes?
  - import [[jerry’s brain]] from [[json]] into [[obsidian]] and [[excalidraw]]
    - [[Zsolt Viczián]] (https://www.zsolt.blog/) is interested in doing this
  - what do we put on [[rel8]]?
    - a list of formats/processes that are sufficient for us to ‘store our brain’ comfortably?
    - [[Mathew Lowry]] user requirements exercise
  - [[flancian]] on a hub architecture for integrating brains and negotiating exchange (format conversion)
    - [[underlay]], [[interlay]], [[overlay]] as per [[metasj]]
  - [[Mathew Lowry]] decentralized or centralized?
    - decentralized is the idea (or distributed)
  - [[Mathew Lowry]] what should we be using as way of standards to create this?
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] text -> markdown -> html
    - (shared by default is convenient but can be problematic)
    - text as the basic standard
    - then add links, e.g. markdown or org mode
    - then html, microformats, json, yaml can be layered on top
    - exchanged p2p (distributed) or via hubs
  - [[Mathew Lowry]] interested on web mentions, fediverse as they exist in the data exchange ecosystem
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] how can you design a minimum building block that is interoperable with other pieces?
    - [[web mentions]] takes the older ideas of pingback/trackback, strips them down to the essentials. it’s a notification system via [[post]] requests.
    - [[mastodon]] could support web mentions (there was talk about this a few years back)
    - if X writes a post about URL A by Y, Y will be pinged
    - Y receives the notification, can do some spot checks (does the call refer to a post that actually has the expected link), and then does whatever it wants with it
    - [[activitypub]] could take advantage of [[webmentions]] as a building block, but it mostly doesn’t
      - [[kevin marks]] (sp?) added microformats to [[mastodon]]
  - [[flancian]] decentralized vs distributed approach, web3 and all
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] technical details vs ease of use
  - [[flancian]] two directions we could go in:
    - text as the standard makes it easy to use actually as users can write text wherever they want, a priori
    - focusing on making existing tools and ecosystems easier to use/onboard to
  - [[Chris Aldrich]]
    - high tech skills: you set up your own mastodon instance, agora, etc.
    - medium: you produce information, content but someone else pays the [[admin tax]] (you contribute to an instance)
    - (spectrum)
    - no technical expertise
    - #push [[blot im]] is very useful, imports from whenever you want
      - [[flancian]] nice, and it’s open source: https://github.com/davidmerfield/blot
      - wanted to do this for the Agora so this is super helpful
  - [[Mathew Lowry]]
    - who are we building this for?
    - “instagram user” might be too wide a net?
    - disconnect from building a knowledge graph and writing for others
  - [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - #push [[nuggets, remedies and pov]]
    - [[nuggetization]] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmId2x6JSQE&feature=related
  - [[public]] vs [[private]] as a default
    - [[public]] as default seems better to seemingly most of us
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] mostly these days notes start in [[hypothes.is]]
    - periodically gets feedback about how cool it is to work in public
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[fedwiki]]
    - [[twitter]] user 509 here (!)
  - [[diego de la hera]]
    - going back to what we have in mind and where our ideas overlap
    - not really sure what he’s expecting here, but a tool that would be interesting would be like this:
      - like the agora, where you could see it from two different perspectives
        
        as a personal tool, where an individual user decides which graphs converge on the agora
        
        “mix and match” feeds and gardens, an aggregator
        
        like an [[agora view]]
      - another agora is closer to anagora.org, where you push many graphs to a place but where the owners of the repos decided that in advance
    - an extension or tool could be written so that the nodes you see could be actual URLs, and incoming/outgoing links would be those around your internet context (social graph, feeds)
    - [[Jerry Michalski]]
      - [[apple’s]] [[knowledge navigator]] video back in 1986
  - [[adversarial interoperability]]
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] For the [[adversarial interoperability]] fans: https://granary.io/
    - [[Mathew Lowry]] [[mysilio]]
  - [[myhub]]
    - writing aids to get from notes to defined outputs
  - [[having a somewhere]]
    - [[knowledge contexts]] as a service
  - [[Chris Aldrich]]
    - [[writing toolkit]]
    - #push [[social reader]] tracks, breaks down and integrates feeds
      - #go https://indieweb.org/social_reader
    - https://indieweb.org/Microsub
    - [[micro.blog]] is great
    - [[refbacks]]
      - https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z2QvtE9w5zs49x7WUeG8Ut1vywHDLiG2Wkm9p pinged his site
  - [[Jerry Michalski]]
    - [[intimacy gradient]] is a pattern in [[a pattern language]]
    - [[the view master]]
      - how do we generalize and integrate the superpowers that each tool gives?
  - [[diego de la hera]]
    - would like to highlight the link aspect of how information pieces relate to each other
    - which links are mentioned in that tweet, that post?
    - about the [[great fungus]]
      - still thinking of this as an individual app customized by the user
      - [[personalized fungus]]? [[fungus view]]
[[minimum viable formats]]
- text
- diagrams
[[goals]]
- define our [[wheres]] (from [[having a somewhere]])
  - [[the big fungus]]
  - [[agora]]
- define minimum viable formats for storing our brains
older notes in [[fotl]]

Chat from [[2022-11-02]]

Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:This brand?
https://www.amazon.com/CZUR-Shine-Ultra-Auto-Flatten-Compatible/dp/B08NSJQ65L

20:08
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:this is the new one, and it’s still 50% off on indiegogo:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fancy-pro-ultra-webcam-pro-book-scanner-in-1

20:10
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09FX5SRQT/
is the one I got
20:10
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:Were you the one who inspired David Graeber’s thesis on Bullshit Jobs? 🤣
20:16
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:ha!
Jerry Michalski says:Pete perfectly explained what happened. the FoTL call for next week starts at 11am, as it should.
20:19
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:
https://dainty-sable-264aa3.netlify.app/project/measuring_thinking_tools.html

20:21
me says:saved in [[thinking tools map]]
20:23
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:Card Sorting Dimensions in Airtable

https://calendar.google.com/calendar/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=NW8zbXUzOXAxMWZxNjlydGFwcWV0YnNnZWQgcGV0ZXIua2FtaW5za2lAbQ&tmsrc=peter.kaminski%40gmail.com

20:23
me says:(taking some notes in
https://doc.anagora.org/fellowship-of-the-link?edit
)
20:24
Peter Kaminski
Peter Kaminski says:“progressive standards”
20:25
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:+1 to interoperability!
20:26
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:is self-dogfooding redundant? doesn’t dogfooding mean using it oneself?
Jerry Michalski says:is Mathew feeling better now?
Jerry Michalski says:low-effort gestures generate a lot of small motion, though
Jerry Michalski says:mastodon lesson 1: don’t be on the main instance
20:33
me says:which one? 😃
20:34
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:
collectiva.social
doesn’t resolve
Jerry Michalski says:nor
http://collective.social/

20:35
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:| Axis | Definition | To score highly |
| — | — | — |
| Openness | How well does it play with other tools? How interoperable and customisable is it? | F/OSS. Use open standards. Has an API. Import/Export Allow 3rd party plugins. Available on all OSs, platforms. Supports structured data |
| Note-making | How good is it as a note-making tool? | Good outliner (easy indent/outdent, reorder, fold/zoom…) Atomic note structure, block references. Zettlekasten support. |
| Writing/Publishing | How good is it as a writing & publishing tool? | WYSIWYG, zen writing environment/design, editing feature set, seamless publishing system to Web, Social. |
| Idea discovery | Does it help users organise and (re)discover relevant notes? | Backlinks, Good search, AI-driven content discovery |
| User-friendliness | How easy is it to start benefiting from it, off the shelf? | New user can get started and get benefits without taking courses, reading 3 books and 23 blog posts, or installing a dozen plugins |
| Power | How powerful, adaptable & configurable is it? | Lots of features, highly customisable, many plug-ins, queryable knowledge, etc. |
| Multiplayer | Allows teamwork | Group-based collaboration: groups, permissions, workflows, version control, commenting, moderation… |
| Help | Is it easy to find high-quality documentation and answers to common questions? | Well-organised onboarding, documentation & FAQ system. |
| Community | Is there a supportive community around the tool | Helpful community, active 3rd party developers, etc. |
| Cost | How expensive is the tool | Free, or at least a v. useful free version in a freemium model |
| Data sovereignty | Who owns your data? | Your files on your PC. |
20:35
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:BlueSky protocol
20:35
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:oops wrong paste
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://kolektiva.social/about

20:36
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:
https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/10-18-2022-the-at-protocol

20:37
me says:
ctzn.one
– now down probably
20:37
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:Paul Frazee?
20:38
me says:yes:
http://anagora.org/pfrazee

20:39
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://paulfrazee.medium.com/back-to-basics-what-is-the-point-of-decentralization-a495123a1fd7

Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://context.center/topics/cryptocurrency/#activity-pub

20:41
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:small note: I’m Twitter user # 509
Jerry Michalski says:when it was just an SMS service 😃
20:43
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:😃
20:43
me says:Pleroma
me says:Lemmy
me says:Misskey?
20:44
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://github.com/misskey-dev/misskey

Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1587511147137486848

20:45
me says:some interesting questions in this space:
me says:1. what is the biggest overall activitypub instance?
me says:2. what is the biggest which isn’t mastodon based?
20:46
Chris Aldrich
Chris Aldrich says:I think
mastodon.social
is the largest instance
20:46
me says:3. how large could a non-mastodon instance feasibly scale up to be currently?
20:46
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:advertising is the colonizing force of capitalism in internet spaces
20:47
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Like
cohost.org
is sort of pushing in that direction as well
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:
https://pinboard.in/
also sort of monetizes that way
20:48
me says:
https://social.coop

20:48
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:guilds --> unions
Jerry Michalski says:mutual aid --> cooperatives
20:50
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4467218-travelling-brothers?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wM2PoCC5zD&rank=12
?
20:51
me says:anti disintermediation
me says:crypto is a convoluted way to define a trust root (in most applications, it seems)
me says:“what are the platforms and protocols that we will take for granted 100 years from now”
me says:counter anti disintermediation 😉
me says:citation needed 😉
20:54
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:full title: Travelling Brothers: The Six Centuries’ Road from Craft Fellowship to Trade Unionism (1979)
Jerry Michalski says:A Collective Bargain: Unions, Organizing, and the Fight for Democracy (2020) ?
20:55
me says:
flancia.org/mine/flanbook
is a bit about this – coopting the machinery of capitalism for the purpose of advancing the revolution
20:56
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:oooo!
20:56
me says:commons
me says:enclosure of the commons == another manifestation of capitalist colonization
20:57
Jerry Michalski
Jerry Michalski says:my notes from this call:
https://bra.in/3pWnJo

20:58
Aram Zucker-Scharff
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Ah i was thinking of Fight Like Hell by Kim Kelly
Aram Zucker-Scharff says:I’ll read that!

2022-06-24

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[flancian]]

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9aRBtTqLjw

Notes

Discussion of [[go links]]
- Demo in anagora.org :)
- [[go/fotl/chat]] and [[go/fellowship of the link/chat]] both now work
Time?
- 11am Pacific on Fridays?
  - Could conflict with date nights in Europe :)
- [[11am Pacific on Thursdays]]?
  - Let’s try this!
[[shared resources]]
- [[Chris Aldrich]] putting up something in the site
  - add a go link :)
- here’s what we’re doing, here’s where we’re going, here is how to join
- let’s use [[chat]] for coordinating
what’s a high leverage topic for the three of us?
- [[Chris Aldrich]] what’s pareto optimal/the 20% we could tackle first?
- [[Jerry Michalski]] has been working on a [[shared vision]]
- [[flancian]] [[2025]]
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- how to build a “webring” for meetings, documents about projects
- [[obsidian]] with [[excalidraw]] done by a friend
  - diagrams.net is also good
- [[open global mind]] ~ [[ogm]]
  - [[flotilla]] -> [[federation]]
  - what do you see from the top of your mast?
  - [[multi plane camera]]
  - [[map of the future]] ~ [[mosaic]]
- [[flancian]] [[agora]] plus iframes for mvp of the above
- [[Chris Aldrich]] standard based, using each item as a block
  - [[oembed]]?
  - tools tends to target one tool only, lots of duplication
  - [[activitypub]]
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] over designed it, over specified it, few people understand it completely
      - [[aaron parecki]]
    - [[mastodon]] as the de facto standard rather than ActivityPub itself
      - we can bridge to mastodon or pleroma, do not need to reimplement it
    - what about [[rss]]?
      - [[Jerry Michalski]] does this not break transclusion?
      - How can we prevent the unproductive RSS/Atom wars of the early blogosphere?
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[least common denominator]]
    - problem or potential?
    - [[tbl]] simplified [[sgml]] and made it break gracefully
    - [[resiliency]]
  - [[cory doctorow]] on the [[tragedy of the commons]]
    - [[modus operandi]] and [[throughput]] amazing
    - [[Chris Aldrich]]: cory has a [[commonplace book]] essentially, see https://pluralistic.net/2021/01/13/two-decades/
    - [[flancian]]
      - [[adversarial interoperability]] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability
      - [[catalog of missing devices]]
from chat unprocesssed
- Jerry Michalski dice:transclusion
- Chris Aldrich dice:How to create a Read Fork Write Merge Web?

2022-06-17

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[metasj]], [[Mathew Lowry]], [[flancian]]
(joined late) (chat history)
[[Jerry Michalski]] and [[mathew]] on [[medium]]
#push [[Mathew Lowry’s chapter]] for [[pkg book]]
- https://mathewlowry.medium.com/from-personal-to-social-knowledge-graphs-a-vision-statement-draft-fc86ef4f7022
- outsourcing commenting to [[hypothesis]]
- [[web annotation standard]]
- [[activitypub]]
- [[activitypub]] to [[web annotation standard]] bridge?
- [[Jerry Michalski]] [[nuggets]] in the [[big fungus]]
- [[Mathew Lowry]] [[nuggets]] as cross-linked executive summaries
[[fediverse]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]] what’s the simplest possible example to get going on comments and annotations on the fediverse?
- what would be the mvp?
  - [[mastodon]] server?
  - [[mattermost]] channel
  - how to [[interlink]]?
[[metasj]]
- challenge: take a [[global commons]] that you care aobut, and scope out its potential full extent
- [[Jerry Michalski]] take a [[pattern language]] that already exist
  - (lists three)
    - [[liberating structures]]
      - https://www.liberatingstructures.com/1-1-2-4-all/
    - Peeragogy
    - Wise Democracy Pattern Language
    - chat bots: [[five whys]]
  - …and turn them into [[commons]] shared materials and instrument
  - [[pattern languages]] == [[distilled wisdom]]
  - from patterns to praxis
  - a platform for pattern languages: this was tried on top of [[mediawiki]] [[smw]]
    - [[metasj]] [[wikibase]] >> [[smw]]
  - [[instrumentalize]] > [[instrument]]?
    - Integrate
    - Arborize
    - what’s the verb when mycelium sprouts a mushroom?
    - [[fruiting]]
  - [[metasj]] tried to put [[ward]] and [[alexander]] in contact to discuss agreeing on a platform
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[engelbart]] struggled with this
  - a strategy to make everybody facilitating facilitations a better facilitator
  - leads to a global memory artifact
- [[mathew]] what’s the end goal of this envisioning/scoping exercise?
  - [[metasj]] a couple of measures of scope:
    - proportion of total human societal interaction affected in a given year
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] (ways of measuring global impact)
    - empowering people
- [[Jerry Michalski]] [[applause in sign language]]
  - used in [[occupy movement]]
  - other gestures used: disagree, blocking, speak louder
  - [[flancian]] related: [[free, fair and alive]] [[anarchist cybernetics]]
  - [[reading club]] on [[dawn of everything]] in [[ogm]]
    - -> [[node club]]
- [[Mathew Lowry]]
  - tools to better capture knowledge produced from conferences/workshops and share it with the world
- [[Jerry Michalski]] [[idea commons]]
  - pastors.com is where a lot of evangelical preachers get what they say on Sundays (!)
  - open source sermon central
- [[flancian]]
  - pattern repository, people router
  - alternatives
- [[flancian]]
  - [[counter anti disintermediation]] leading back to distributed systems and liquid democracy
    - maybe could yield a metric w.r.t. degree of distrubution of structures of power
  - [[complementary cognitive artifacts]]
    - maybe yields a metric w.r.t. resiliency to losing
  - composed effects of higher efficiency in cooperation, [[coordination problem]]
- chat
  - unschooling, regenerative agriculture, traffic calming…
  - ice:bootstrapping: ways to make people vectors for a new approach
  - patterning: process for helping people abstract their work to its full potential extent
  - which will usually overlap w/ the full-extent of other existing/smaller patterns
  - matchmaking: people who could work on the same vectors
  - https://www.clearerthinking.org/
[[action items]]
- [[flancian]]
  - upload past recording to youtube
[[metasj]] and [[flancian]] 1:1
- [[building bridges]], [[wormholes]]
- [[workshops]] and [[facilitating]] of world building
- [[future casting]] -> [[incepting]]
- [[wikimedia]] + [[web annotations]]
  - [[diego de la hera]]
  - there is an extension that makes them worked well together
  - how does the community moderate annotations?
  - [[flancian]] default: the site sets the default ranking function for annotations. and perhaps some annotations are community owned, wiki like?

2022-06-09

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
Inviting others
- [[flancian]] been inviting people already, but would be like to use some kind of policy?
- [[Jerry Michalski]] suggest to use the Mattermost to coordinate; use this space to consider together our goals and attract others like this
  - [[mattermost]] https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link
- let’s use the list of people in the [[doc]] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RAourQe_MKh0uWomLsS_V5ea3zm30g8paE49X56jIHs/edit
  - to brainstorm on who to invite if you want to discuss a priori
- [[flancian]] invited Dan because of his interested in the space + his experience with web standards
[[Jerry Michalski]]
- [[web]] https://www.fellowshipofthelink.org/
- who wants admin? :)
- we could also start groups in social networks, e.g. linkedin
  - [[flancian]] [[mastodon]]?
  - got stuck in [[choosing an instance]]
    - [[diego de la hera]] mastodon.social could be seen as the default
    - (instance delegation could be interesting, web of trust like)
    - http://www.unmung.com/mastoview is a tool for helping to choose Mastondon instances
  - [[diego de la hera]] lack of defaults as a hindrance to adoption here, in the indieweb as well
  - [[Jerry Michalski]] [[barry schwartz]] https://bra.in/4jXVP2
    - [[the tyranny of choice]]
    - [[schelling point]]
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] with more choice you usually get increasing complexity
    - you are given so much choice it’s almost too much (in the indieweb)
    - [[Jerry Michalski]] templates, walkthroughs add a lot of value
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] you need either a lot of time or people motivated because they’re building business
    - [[peter kaminski]] introduced [[Jerry Michalski]] to [[obsidian]]
    - on straightforward vs powerful tools
    - [[diego de la hera]] on the power of forks
      - e.g. [[Chris Aldrich]]'s setup is something we could fork to bootstrap a new user’s environment
      - people have copy/pasted Chris’s website already, full pages at a time :)
  - [[flancian]] [[map of the fediverse]]
longer term goals / brainstorming / dream sharing
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - series of projects revolving around these issues
    - [[open global mind]], started 2y ago
      - part of a [[flotilla]] with other organizations
      - 8am pacific, standing call for [[ogm]]
    - [[rel8]]
      - why is it so hard to share, integrate notes – build arguments?
        
        -> [[argument mapping]]?
        
        [[argumentation theory]]
        
        [[stephen toulmin]] -> [[toulmin model of argument]]
      - [[the big fungus]] == https://thebigfungus.org
      - interested in the scaffolding, infrastructure to share ideas
    - [[think camp]] funds startups in this space
      - “profitable businesses that feed the [[commons]]”
  - read an interesting article today, conservative point of view with good arguments even though some disagreeable premises
    - how do we put this article up to scrutiny and learn from it together?
      - -> [[web annotations]]?
      - [[gyuri lajos]]
        
        [[Jerry Michalski]] let’s have a group sync with Gyuri?
        
        [[Chris Aldrich]] trails are related to [[vannevar bush]]'s
  - wishlist for [[fotl]]: how do these parts fit together?
    - how do we make it so that our notes provide maximum utility, spread through the big fungus
- [[Chris Aldrich]] would like to focus on how to
  - make it all work together
  - make the systems be easy to use
  - make something that is as simple to understand as facebook?
  - I’d like to see [[commonplace books]] that can “talk” to each other.
  - “the [[stream]] flows by too fast”
    - turning streams into gardens
    - [[neil]] from the Agora has great writing on streams vs gardens, how they relate to each other - https://doubleloop.net/
[[john borthwick]] at [[betaworks]] has funding for small projects [[think camp]]
Watch parties
- [[connection series]]
  - watch these, take notes/diagrams and share/interop
  - -> [[books, paintings, movies, ideas that shaped many people’s lives]]
    - https://bra.in/5pxdW6
- [[dan whaley]] youtube annotations are a side project / hobby
  - [[docdrop]] https://docdrop.org/
[[diego de la hera]]
- web annotations were mentioned; thought of two connections
  - [[peter hagen]] -> [[lindylearn]] https://lindylearn.io/ and specifically https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
    - social platform where you would find what other people are annotating and join the conversation
    - provides a discovery layer for what others are reading and thinking about
  - [[chrome]] is also tackling annotations
  - [[worldbrain]], [[memex]]?
  - it seems like here we want to work more on the level of how to connect different annotation tools at a (federated?) layer
    - perhaps what we need is an integration device at this layer, e.g. [[wikilinks]]
Timing
After the event, [[Mathew Lowry]]: https://doc.anagora.org/Kz1qvywQRjq9nZ-ElXlHUg?view

Matterbridge site for group communication: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/tips

https://collectivesensecommons.org/

Mathew Lowry mentioned [[Mysilio]]

https://github.com/mysilio-co
(https://mysilio.com/) a “thinking tool”/platform that uses [[Solid]] - funded by [[Foundation for the Web]]; has a social media tool and a digital garden

[[David McRaney]] (twitter) has several books:

[[How Minds Change]] #books/wanttoread/2
[[You’re Not So Smart]] #books/wanttoread/2
[[You are Now Less Dumb]]

2022-06-02

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
Our personal history
- Diego en Córdoba
- Jerry Michalski pasos por sudamérica, ahora en Portland
- Eduardo de Buenos Aires, ahora en Suiza
Relationships locally and globally
Jerry: [[open global mind]] meeting just before
- Send email to sociate@gmail.com to sign up :)
([[Chris Aldrich]] joined, introductions)
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - [[the brain]]
  - [[chris]] any shares in the company?
  - not anymore
  - do you have backups?
  - occasionally :) but the format is a big bag of [[json]] objects, not bery interoperable
    - wishlist: [[open global mind]] platform instead
- [[diego de la hera]]
  - hypothes.is user, contributor as the maintainer of the unofficial extension for firefox; working with [[wikimedia foundation]]
  - met Chris through hypothes.is
- [[Chris Aldrich]]
  - background: biomedical and electrical engineer, been on the web since the early 90s
  - [[indieweb]] / https://indieweb.org
  - [[open web backup]], strong belief in owning your own domain, your own data, your own identity
  - done work on genetics, but germane: spent a lot of time in the [[entertainment industry]] as it overlaps with the open web
  - massive amount of data
  - history, culture as intertwined with knowledge tools
  - current focus on wikis and note taking tools
[[Jerry Michalski]] wishful thinking for a design in this space
- it should allow all users to view data through their chosen tools
- sometimes you change tools as you shift what you need to do (they are good at different modes of thinking)
- [[planes]]
  - [[multi plane camera]], [[disney history]]
    - similar to layers in photoshop/gimp
  - bought https://www.playnz.dev
- [[kumu]] == https://kumu.io
  - is it open source?
- [[jupyter notebooks]] are an inspiration
- https://thebigfungus.org
  - [[leaf cutting ants]]
  - ([[diego de la hera]] worked with them)
  - [[symbiotic relationship]] with the fungus
- [[diego de la hera]] we mentioned a diversity of tools here:
  - closed and open
  - wiki like and otherwise
  - …but as long as these platforms provide this data in a documented way, do we need a central tool? wouldn’t collaboration emerge even without a central tool?
  - [[jerry]] +1 – the big fungus is a metaphor for the result of this collaboration. But [[playnz]] might be an [[mvp]]/[[demo]] or just an experiment/playground for interoperability.
  - are these tools perhaps already playns?
    - they might be, yes.
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[progressive enhancement]] is key
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement
    - how can we take all these tools and build an architecture that supports progressive enhancement?
    - we start with plain text as the base, then you can add things like markdown/html, then you add photos/media
  - [[flancian]] problems and opportunities:
    - exploring hub architecture vs full graph integration
    - lossiness as you interop through tools, playns
    - complexity of integrations
      - [[Chris Aldrich]] pairwise compatibility is a nightmare
  - [[translation as a service]]
    - [[pandoc]]
    - [[Chris Aldrich]] [[paas]] == [[pandoc as a service]]
  - [[markdown as lingua franca]]
- [[Jerry Michalski]]
  - [[mapping tools for thinking]] in [[jerry’s brain]]
  - also an amazing list of people
  - book: [[the extended mind]]
- interest in the [[crystallization]] of what we know together
  - contributing to the same lists -> [[collective action]]
  - [[diego de la hera]] the relationship between these efforts and [[wikimedia]] projects
    - [[intermingle]] / preservation of voices
    - [[ward cunningham]]! [[fedwiki]]
    - Ward’s calls
  - [[Chris Aldrich]] we should invite [[mark bernstein]], [[tinderbox]]
[[fellowship of the link]] as it relates to other projects
[[diego de la hera]] isn’t the web as a whole what we need? :)
- [[html is the lingua franca of our time]]
- [[web mentions]]
  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention
  - https://brid.gy/
  - [[indieweb]] has examples of this working
    - [[acid test]] of interoperability
    - [[swat0]] https://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
  - search engine for tagged/linked trusted content
    - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonplace_book
    - intimacy gradient
  - [[delicious]]
    - #c19 == [[19th century]]
  - [[technorati]]
[[lists]] we could assemble:
- people in this space
  - the above
  - [[tantek Çelik]]
  - “how can we build this with as little technology as possible”
- projects in this space (knowledge tools)
- recurrent calls in this space
  - https://lu.ma/toolsforthoughtrocks
- possible [[lingua francas]]
[[Chris Aldrich]] “The world lost so much because Vannevar Bush didn’t use the word commonplace book in his article As We May Think.”
- how can we take open tools like [[logseq]], or semi-open like [[obsidian]], and create a reusable store
- [[blot]] == https://blot.im
- [[granary]] == https://granary.io/ for translating between silo formats as well as feed formats [[rss]], [[atom]], [[h-feed]], [[JSONfeed]], etc.
https://bra.in/3vGWLa
https://bra.in/7v2NRe

Fellowship of the Link

[[2025-03-26]]

[[2025-03-19]]

[[2025-03-12]]

[[2025-02-19]]

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[[2024-10-09]]

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[[2024-08-21]]

[[2024-08-14]]

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Assignment

[[2023-01-17]]

[[2023-12-20]]

[[2023-12-06]]

[[2023-11-29]]

[[2023-11-08]]

[[2023-10-18]]

[[2023-10-11]]

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[[2023-09-06]]

[[2023-08-30]]

Topics

[[2023-08-16]]

[[2023-08-09]]

[[2023-08-02]]

[[2023-07-19]] ?

[[2023-07-12]]

[[2023-07-05]]

[[2023-06-28]]

[[2023-06-21]]

[[2023-06-07]]

[[2023-05-31]]

[[2023-05-24]]

[[2023-05-17]]

[[mycellial networks]]

[[2023-05-10]]

[[2023-05-03]]

[[2023-04-26]]

[[2023-04-12]]

[[2023-04-05]]

[[2023-03-29]]

2023-03-08

2023-03-01

2023-02-23

2023-02-15

2023-02-08

2023-02-01

2023-01-25

2023-01-18